Talk Dirty To Me

Daytime talk shows didn’t just entertain us, they trained a whole generation to watch strangers confess, fight, reconcile, and melt down before dinner. We’re Nicole and Heather, and we dig into how talk shows evolved from Phil Donahue’s audience-driven, single-topic conversations into the tabloid talk TV era where shock value became the product. Think Oprah’s cultural power, Sally Jesse Raphael’s human-interest tone, Geraldo’s controversy, Jerry Springer’s chaos, Jenny Jones’ ambush-style reveals, Ricky Lake’s youth focus, Montel’s mix of uplift and spectacle, and Maury’s paternity-test obsession that turned “You are not the father” into a permanent meme.

We talk about the business mechanics too: first-run syndication, ratings pressure, and why producers kept pushing further into infidelity, secrecy, humiliation, and on-air conflict. Then we get honest about the darker side of this media history, including how marginalized people sometimes gained visibility while also getting exploited for entertainment. If you’re interested in media ethics, reality TV origins, and Gen X nostalgia, this is the rabbit hole that connects it all.

Some stories still hit hard: we unpack two tragedies tied to the genre, the Jenny Jones case involving Scott Amedure and the Jerry Springer case involving Nancy Campbell-Panitz, and what they changed about guest screening, consent, security, and aftercare. We also throw in a practical PSA on lie detectors and why “ask for a lawyer” is always the move.

Subscribe for more Gen X deep-dives, share this with a friend who used to keep Springer on in the background, and leave a review with your hottest take: were talk shows a guilty pleasure, a cultural mirror, or something we should’ve shut down sooner?

Transcript

Cold Open And Chaos Energy

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Two best friends fucking fast. We're missing two arcades, we're having a blast. Eating these dreams, be on screens, it was all bad. Like you know, like whatever, never forever. Never never never laughing, sharing, or going forever. We'll take you back like whatever.

Gen X Podcast Welcome

Netflix Dinosaurs And What We Missed

SPEAKER_07 0:30

Welcome to Like Whatever, a podcast for, by, and about Gen X. I'm Nicole, and this is my BFFF, Heather. Hello. Um, we didn't discuss what we were gonna talk about before we came on here. We were too busy to discuss the dinosaurs documentary on Netflix. Oh, I loved it so much. I really loved it too. I'm not a big dinosaur fan like you are, but I liked um learning a lot of a lot of learning.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Science. It's a lot of science.

SPEAKER_07 1:05

It is a lot of science, and I love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

There's some um dinosaurs that don't usually get the uh the press on this one, and that is really true.

SPEAKER_07 1:15

Like I didn't realize they were like little tiny dinosaurs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18

Well, raptors were only the size of turkeys. Yeah. Steven Spielberg kind of bumped them up a little bit for the movie. But yeah. It it was good. It was although if you haven't watched it yet, I'm not gonna spoil any I mean spoiler alert, they all die. Um but the way they do it is specific to the actual dinosaurs through time. Right. Uh so how they each era. Yeah, each era of of you know, of dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_07 1:58

I mean, that was even kind of something we were talking about, how we learned so so very little about those in school. And we did learn about the eras, but I didn't really understand them so much, and I didn't realize dinosaurs were on this planet for so long, like hundreds of millions of years.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

And they got wiped out a few times. So, you know, it's it's one of those things where you don't it is hard to wrap your mind around how very, very hard it was. Yeah. Um, you know, science is a thing. And it's like I said before, science is one of those things where it's a theory that is constantly developing. So, I mean, to our teachers' credit, back when we were in school, they did not know that dinosaurs were birds. That's been a recent thing. So, you know.

SPEAKER_07 2:56

But they also taught us an asteroid hit the earth and then they only died immediately, and that was the end of that. And that's not even at all how it happened. It is not.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Um it is very sensational.

SPEAKER_07 3:10

It is, yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

But you know, you gotta bring it.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

It's pretty brutal. Yeah, there's parts of it where it is yeah, pretty fucking brutal. Yeah. Where you're like, damn, wow. Oh shit. I mean, there was one time where I out loud went, oh shit. Like, wow. What the fuck was that? Yeah, no, I really enjoyed it. It is very good. It is, it's it's very well done. It's beautiful, absolutely stunning.

SPEAKER_07 3:42

It really is.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

I mean, I get it, it's all CGI and stuff, but wow.

SPEAKER_07 3:46

Yeah. And you know I'm not usually down with that kind of stuff, but how else are you gonna produce it? Yeah, yeah. You can't build all them. But it was really realistic looking, I think.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

I think so. I I just I really enjoyed it. I thought it was great. Um if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend. If you're on the fence about it because it's Steven Spielberg and you're like, uh, but I think for the most part it's pretty solid.

SPEAKER_07 4:10

Yeah. Yeah. The the the visual isn't well, we don't know how accurate it is. That's true. I wasn't there. But the science part of it is pretty factual.

Science Changes And People Fight It

SPEAKER_04 4:23

You know, because it's it's it it is a guessing game. I mean, you have to guess. Yeah, they are birds. Uh and that's another thing that's a little bit issuey for me. Um, when you say they became dinosaurs, like birds be are well, dinosaurs became birds the other way around. Technically, birds are just dinosaurs. Like that was another thing. We were always taught that they were lizards and they were reptiles, and that's just not true. Um, but they found that out. So, you know, that's with anything, just like with anything, the more we can explore and find things out, and that's why it drives me fucking insane when especially no shade, religious people are like, oh well, you know, you said well, because we got smarter because technology advanced to be able to see down further into the earth.

SPEAKER_07 5:20

Well, and even in that um scheme of not being able to wrap your head around it, it's hard to wrap your head around how big the earth is.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:28

And how much land there is and how much water there is. And so there's there could be tons of other dinosaurs in that world. Well, you said what? They discover one a week or something.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

One a week, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:39

Yeah. So I mean, there's so much of Imagine if they could get into like the South Pole. It's already well and that's just it.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

There's so much of this earth that they have. I mean, the Indian Ocean is in so deep that there's they can't have no idea what's on the bottom of it.

SPEAKER_07 5:53

So, I mean, there could be I don't want to know because those deep sea fish are scary. But if there were some sort of dinosaurs that live down there, they probably wouldn't have been a few.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

That's where Nessie lives. Yeah, gotcha. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:08

I see a lot of theories that say Nessie was just a whale penis.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

It does kind of look like a Nessie. I don't know. Never seen her. Also never seen a Sasquatch.

SPEAKER_07 6:22

No. I do believe in those though.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

I love cryptids. I think cryptids are great. Mothman.

SPEAKER_07 6:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

Big fan.

SPEAKER_07 6:30

A lot of them are yeah. A lot of them can be a little far-fetched, but I do feel like a Bigfoot could I feel like they're rooted in some type of reality.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

I mean, that's a dog with mange.

SPEAKER_07 6:46

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Right.

SPEAKER_07 6:47

Like I think there could have been giants. Yeah. At some point, you know. Dinosaurs, right? Who knows? Very huge. Dinosaurs, and they're kind of funky looking, so like stuff can happen. Well, and that's just like did somebody come across fossils at some point that were, you know, dinosaur-esque and looked, I mean I was watching one of my history channel shows or whatever, and they were talking about wanting to prove the theory that there were really cyclops. And it was because back in the days when cyclops were big in in literature and things like that, um, an explorer had discovered he didn't know at the time, but he had discovered, I think it was like a baby elephant skull or something, and it just had one hole in the center, and they thought that was the eye socket, but that was where the trunk came out. So, yeah, so science. You know, they did the best they could with the information they had, and then we learned more, and now we know what it is.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

I mean, at one point we thought a guy in a chariot brought the sun up every day. I mean, he doesn't? No, he doesn't. Nowhere, no, boomer. Yeah, it was debunked. Sorry. Damn it. Spoiler.

SPEAKER_07 8:05

No, no guy in a chariot brings the sun up. Next, you're gonna tell me the earth isn't flat.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

It is not. Also, moon not made out of cheese. Oh.

SPEAKER_07 8:14

I know. Well, I guess I don't need to go there then. The moon is another I just wanted the cheese.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Another fascinating story how the moon became a thing. It's that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_07 8:23

Yeah, I did watch something recently on like the planets in the solar system and all the solar systems within the solar system. And it's a lot. It's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

It's cool that a uh asteroid hit the earth and blew a big hunk of it off, and that's what became our moon. Yeah. Crazy. It's and that's why like you know, that doesn't take five minutes. That's a long time. So when everybody's like, oh, it rained for a million years, I don't think so. I mean, if we in the grand scheme of things, a million years is not a million years is a long time for you. Yeah. Because you're only gonna be here for 80. So Right. Right. But a million years is not that long in the the no the grand scheme of our it's not fantastic earth.

SPEAKER_07 9:13

Did you watch the Oscars?

unknown 9:14

No.

SPEAKER_07 9:16

You didn't miss much. I didn't think I would. That's right. That's happy my Rudolph's husband. Um he's the one that uh made one battle after another.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:28

And he not only won his first Oscar, he won three Oscars that night. So that was pretty exciting. They're pretty cute. But yeah, and Michael B. Jordan. Yeah, I did hear that. He did deserve that.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

Did you know that his father's name is Michael A. Jordan? I did not.

SPEAKER_07 9:46

I heard a joke this week that they're starting to think that he is the Michael Jordan of acting.

SPEAKER_04 9:53

I haven't watched that movie.

SPEAKER_07 9:54

I have heard it's good, but I haven't watched it. It's really good. I tried to watch it Monday night after watching the again, after watching the um Oscars, but HBO was acting weird. It kept like freezing up. I've been having a lot of trouble with HBO too. Have you? Okay, so I wasn't sure if it was the internet and it wouldn't just freeze up, it would freeze but let like 10 seconds of it run. So I kept missing what people were saying, and I was like, screw this, I'll just try it later. I was wondering if HBO is just overloaded with people trying to watch it. Trying to watch it.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

I have I've noticed that it'll go to an ad and it'll never come back from the ad.

SPEAKER_07 10:31

Yeah, I actually had Hulu and I had to cancel it for that reason because and then you go back and then it would come back on. Sometimes it would run, sometimes it would stop at the same point. Yeah, for what they charge for this shit, they need to get it together. Get it together. It can't be that hard.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

I know, right?

SPEAKER_04 10:49

Science.

unknown 10:51

God.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yep. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_07 10:57

Speaking of TV, today wait real quick. Oh, wait. Hands up. Like, share, rate, review. Oh, yeah, shit. Find us on all the socials at Lake Whatever Pod. I was trying to do a segue. She was. Um, email us at likewhateverpod.com. Visit our website at www.likewhateverpod.com. Find us on YouTube at Lake Whatever, where we hit 100 subscribers. Subscribers. We're famous now. Um yeah, I think that's it. Okay. Okay. Now you can segue. Can I segue?

SPEAKER_04 11:37

Speaking of TV. Let's fuck around. Well, first, I just want to tell you that I did pick this topic yesterday. Okay. Because I watched a documentary on it. Oh, fun. And I was like, oh yeah. And I've been wanting to do it for a while. And then I saw that and I was like, on it. Gotcha. Fuck around.

SPEAKER_07 12:01

Segwaying now.

Talk Shows Topic Kickoff

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Yeah. Okay. Fuck around and find out about talk shows.

SPEAKER_07 12:07

Ooh, I'm very excited for this because this is a topic that's been on my notes list in my phone. Right. Like since we started. Right. And I've just never gotten to it.

SPEAKER_04 12:17

I don't remember what the name of the documentary or what it was even on. But it was good. It was very good. Um, so I'm gonna what I'm gonna do is go through, and I know that we're gonna be wanting to talk about a couple of things, but we're gonna have to hold off to the end. Also, I'm gonna put it straight up front. Okay. We all know that some of the subject matter on these talk shows is very problematic now. Yes. I get it. Yes. I'm not gonna speak to that because we all know what we did wrong there. Yes. And we can just but we know about the time.

SPEAKER_07 12:56

Yes. There's unfortunately.

From Donahue To Shock TV

SPEAKER_04 12:58

I was never on one, but I was a subject of one about goth kids and the talk show format has deep roots in American broadcasting, tracing back to radio and early television. The earliest television talk show, Meet the Press, debuted in 1947, offering a platform for political discussion and public affairs. The format quickly expanded with the Today Show launching in 1952.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

That's crazy with Meet the Press. That still comes on Sunday mornings.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

And the Tonight Show in 1954. The latter establishing the late night genre under hosts like Steve Allen and Johnny Carson. These early programs were characterized by a blend of news, interviews, and light entertainment, reflecting television's growing influence on American society. As television reached more households, the talk show format diversified. By the 60s and 70s, daytime talk show began to emerge as a distinct genre, often focusing on issues relevant to women and families.

SPEAKER_07 14:00

I was gonna say you mixed um housewives and the television set.

SPEAKER_04 14:05

It brought up a really good, and I almost I almost did this one, and then I was like, mm-mm. Uh I was torn there for a minute, but I'm not as familiar with the second. But daytime television has died.

SPEAKER_07 14:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Like just it's horrible. Have you ever tried to watch TV during the day? No. And that like soap operas are gone.

SPEAKER_07 14:28

I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a few hanging on. And I thought it was funny that they actually just like last year released a new um um yeah, soap opera called Beyond the Gates, I think it's called. Yeah. And I was shocked to see that they were bringing one out because I didn't think anybody I mean, I think grannies watch them, but I don't think anybody it's I I think it's just I think and Gen X, anybody I ever talked to, they remember watching them with their grandmother or their mom, but they don't watch it now.

unknown 14:58

Uh-da.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

Lee Philip Bell's show in Chicago, for example, occasionally addressed controversial topics through though without a studio audience. The format's flexibility allowed it to adapt to changing social norms and audience expectations. What was the name of that one? The Phil Bell Show. Lee Phil Bell. Lee Philip Bell's show. It didn't say like the what the Okay.

unknown 15:22

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

A pivotal moment in the evolution of daytime talk came with the debut of the Phil Donahue show in 1967.

SPEAKER_07 15:32

He's the first one I think of when I make of old school, like old, old school.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

So you know who's on this documentary? Sally. Get out! I won't. Does she still wear red gloves? Yep. She's 91. Damn. Go, Sally. Uh-huh. I'm gonna have to. You know what? I'm gonna Google it right now. Everyone hold. It's called Dirty Talk. Okay. And it's on Hulu. It's a three-part series.

SPEAKER_07 15:55

I just told you I canceled my password. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

Oh no, you can get it through the Disney.

SPEAKER_07 16:03

Yeah, the Disney's not working right now. We never did fix. Well, I know I haven't tried since.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

Oh, anyway.

SPEAKER_07 16:10

We'll talk about that later.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Donny Hugh's approach.

SPEAKER_07 16:13

Sorry, side note.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Donahue's approach was groundbreaking. He invited audience participation, tackled taboo subjects, and encouraged open dialogue on politics, religion, sexuality, and social issues. The show's moved to national syndication in 1970, expanding its reach and influence, setting the template for future talk shows. Donahue's willingness to address topics like atheism, homosexuality, and women's rights resonated with viewers and paved the way for more inclusive and provocative programming. And I just went too far. Because it was women watching it. Donahue's format, single topic episodes, a panel of guests, and active audience engagement became the gold standard for daytime talk. His success demonstrated that viewers were interested in more than just entertainment. They craved substantive discussions about the world around them. As Oprah Winfrey later acknowledged, if there had been no Phil Donahue show, there would be no Oprah Winfrey show. By the early 80s, the talk show landscape began to shift. While issue-oriented programs like Donahue and later the Oprah Winfrey Show maintained a focus on social change and self-improvement, a new breed of talk show emerged, one that prioritized sensationalism, personal confession, and confrontation. This tabloid talk show subgenre was characterized by lured topics, emotional outbursts, and increasingly onset violence. The transition was catalyzed catalyzed. Why is that weird? By shows that the word looks weird. By shows like the Morton Downey Jr. show from 87 to 89, which pioneered the trash TV format with its aggressive hosts, combative guests, and raucous audience participation, Downey's program reveled in controversy, featuring screaming matches, physical altercations, and provocative catchphrases. The show's success demonstrated the commercial potential of shock value and paved the way for even more extreme programming. The economic engine behind the talk show boom was the first run syndication model. Unlike network programming, syndicated shows were sold market by market, allowing producers to maximize profits and tailor content to local audiences. This model incentivized competition as shows vied for ratings by pushing the boundaries of taste and decency. By the late 80s and early 90s, the competition for viewers intensified. Producers realized that provocative topics, infidelity, paternity disputes, sexual taboos, and family dysfunction drew larger audiences and consequently higher advertising revenues. The result was a rare erase to the bottom, which each show striving to outdo its rivals in shock and spectacle.

SPEAKER_07 19:04

I have so much to say, but I know you're gonna lead up to stuff, so I'm just gonna stop.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Feel free to jump in anytime.

SPEAKER_07 19:10

No, I'm speculating on shows now.

unknown 19:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

The Jerry Springer show, the Jenny Jones show, Sally Jesse Raphael, Geraldo, Ricky Lake, Montel Williams, and Maury each developed their own signature styles, but all shared a commitment to sensationalism and audience engagement. I love Mesa Montel. Oh, I know. The genre's popularity peaked in the mid to late 90s with the some shows surpassing even Oprah in their ratings.

SPEAKER_07 19:45

She showed them.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

She did.

SPEAKER_07 19:49

Slow and steady wins the race.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

She got her own channel. Academic and media critics debated the social impact of these programs. Some, like socialist Vicky App, argued that tabloid talk shows blurred the lines between normal and deviant behavior. Duh. Redefined social norms and fueling a cultural, a culture of confession and spectacle. Others, like Joshua Gameson, credited the genre with providing visibility to marginalized groups, particularly LGBTQ individuals, and fostering a more incentive, inclusive media landscape.

Exploitation Then Hoarders And Depression

SPEAKER_07 20:24

I will say that yes, they did expose that more, but they also um shit. I just had the word. Exploited. Yes, that's the one. I was like, eh, uh, I know it starts with an E. I feel like exploited them, and I hate that. And that's what I want to say about TV today. And I don't think I'll ruin anything by saying it, but especially TLC is the worst. They exploit these poor people that clearly have some serious issues going on. Yeah. And, you know, you drop dangle some money in front of somebody when you're living poor, you know, you're gonna do it. And I just think it's horrible. Like I used to love to watch hoarders like years ago, and then eventually I just became so sad. Like, it's not just that you're collecting stuff, it's that you have trauma in your background and mental health issues, and it's not.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

I have always said I'm like two seconds away from being a hoarder. And I watched one today. It's funny that you should bring this up because I was watching hoarder studies because I have to remind myself. Yeah. Um, and this lady today was me. I mean, she had a ton of shit, and she was a nurse, and it had just been building up after year after year after year after year. And they came in and the psychologist was trying to get her, like it was a little exploitive because she kept saying, I did this, I know, I know it's wrong. And they were like, Well, you have to go through and you have to help us decide what you want. And she was like, I don't. Care, get rid of it all.

SPEAKER_07 22:01

Yeah. Watching them try to throw these people's things away.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

And some of those people are very attached to their stuff. This woman wasn't.

SPEAKER_07 22:09

Oh. This woman died. She just got overwhelmed and didn't know what to do.

SPEAKER_04 22:13

Her parents died as long as somebody else, right around the same time. Okay. But she had a lot of childhood trauma from her parents. Yep. And she said how it started was she she was a nurse. So she came home from work. She was tired. She put the stuff she bought down. And then the next day she did the same thing. Yes. I mean, that's Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 22:38

I think the last episode I ever watched made me cry because it was a woman whose I don't know if her mom, dad, both of them took literally everything out of her bedroom, put it in the front yard, and set it all on fire. So now she feels like she needs to hold tight to everything. And it just broke my heart so bad. And I was like, I can't watch this anymore. But I get what you're saying about you wanting to watch it to keep you in check. Because I think that's why I enjoy like I like to watch the ID channel because it's all people who come from trauma. And I can relate and I'm like, all right, they're, you know, this happened to them too. And this is where they're at, and this is where I'm at. Not that I'm comparing, but it kind of um legitimaticized legitist, legit that word. Yeah. Um it makes it legitimate that some of the actions that I do because of the trauma that I went through. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's why it's it's like it's my comfort show. Like when I'm feeling down, that's what I want to watch, is that stuff. And it just kind of makes me know there are other people out there too that have been through the things.

SPEAKER_04 23:49

And that's kind of why I especially this lady too. This lady today got re really got me because she is me. I am her. Um, you know, when you get to a point in your depression where you've put yourself in a position so deep that you absolutely have no idea how to get out. And this show was giving her that out. Other people were coming in and cleaning everything out of her house. So I feel like she kept them set. Because you she had no, she didn't care where it went, she didn't have an attachment to any of the shit.

SPEAKER_07 24:25

She just didn't want it and she didn't know where to start. And I mean, and just think when you're like a kid, your mom tells you to clean your bedroom and you walk in, you're like, I don't know where to start. Like there's shit everywhere. Everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

And she would just go shopping to because it was something to do to keep her out of her house. And it was making her feel better. And and then she was just bringing it in and dropping it, and then just it would pile up and pile up and pile up. And this I think is one of the most misunderstood things, I think, about depression. And it's the thing that I struggle with the most with my depression. Like I know I can catch it now, where I'm like, oh shit, I'm about to go down the the rabbit hole here. And I felt like if she's not gonna be able to keep it that way because she's gonna get depressed again, and it's gonna at some point something is gonna happen, it's gonna overwhelm her. But if she could pay somebody, and she's a nurse, so she I feel like she has the money, if she could pay somebody to come in once a week and clean, you never get overwhelmed again because it's it's an easier thing to start from. But once you get to a point where it's overwhelming, you you can't see the forest for the trees.

SPEAKER_07 25:38

Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I I don't live with depression, but I'm finally gonna just go ahead and say it. I'm going through a divorce. Yes. Um, so I have been through depression this winter, and I literally thought I wasn't gonna be able to stay at my job because I felt so overwhelmed. I was like, I can't keep up with this, like I can't do this, and I didn't remember that I could do that before. It's just all I could think was I can't do this job. Like I I I don't have what it takes to keep up with it. And now I'm coming out on the other side of the depression and I'm back at it and I'm crushing it every day and doing what I need to do. But I've told you this before, I don't know how you live like this every single day because it's bad. Yeah, I I I there's no way. I I mean, I don't know. I mean, obviously there's a way you do it, but medication these days.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

I don't think I can do it without medication. Anyway, we got distracted. Um yeah, it's just it's it's overwhelming. Um and once you get into the pit, you cannot get back out until you set fire to the whole world. And I mean, uh uh that is one of the reasons I walked away from a house.

SPEAKER_07 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

It's too much. Couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_07 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

It was too overwhelming, there was too much there. It was just too much. So I get it. It's once you get in there, it's hard to get back out.

SPEAKER_07 27:15

And then Yeah, I can't even fathom living the way I felt this past winter.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

I just can't even it is a struggle every day for me to realize that if I do not do the dishes right now, they're gonna sit there for the five. They're gonna sit there for and then it's gonna then I'm gonna start getting overwhelmed. And then I'm gonna this is why I just need a maid. That's I I I don't I hate cleaning number one. So I will put it off until it's entirely too late. But that's as the laundry gets overwhelming, and it's like if I don't do this right this minute, like it just you have to remember you have to just do one thing.

SPEAKER_07 27:51

And that sounds exhausting, having to stay on top of everything all the time and make a conscious effort to be on top of things. I have an app so that you don't put yourself.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

I have an app that tells me every day that I have to do like wipe the bathroom counter. I'll do this because it just it does take just one thing a day.

SPEAKER_07 28:07

That's funny because when I was in my depression and talking about it with my therapist, one of the um things I did, I only did it for like a week or two. Um, but I was like, I think I need to write a list of the things that I need to get done because I'm just sitting there watching TV looking at the carpet that needs to be vacuumed and the tabletops that need to be dusted, and the dishes in the sink, and the laundry that needs to be done. And I'm like, maybe if I just write a list, no pressure, just every day when I come home, pick one thing on that list, get it taken care of, it'll need to be done again by the time I get everything else done, but at least so I get that what you're talking about there with doing that. So, yeah.

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SPEAKER_02 28:51

This is for the Gen Xers who carried too much too young, the ones who learned to be strong before they ever felt safe, the ones who survived and kept going. My Hearts of Glass series is a story about first love, but it's also about healing after trauma, about friends who become family, about choosing tenderness when the world taught you to wear armor, set in the glow of 1980 suburbia, mall corridors and mixtapes. It's nostalgic, yes. But it's also a reminder. You deserved better, and you still do. If you're ready for a story that sees you, visit my website, packgreenauthor.com, and discover the books Hearts of Glass Living in a Real World, and its sequel, Hearts of Glass Fade Away and Radiate, in ebook, audiobook, and paperback. You're not invisible and you were never alone.

SPEAKER_07 29:46

Maybe we'll get through your script tonight. I know.

Oprah Sally Springer Maury Breakdown

SPEAKER_04 29:51

Um debuting in 1967 as a local program in Dayton, Ohio, the Phil Donahue show went national in 1970 and ran for 29 seasons.

SPEAKER_07 30:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 30:05

Producing over 6,700 episodes.

SPEAKER_07 30:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Donahue's format was revolutionary. Single topic episodes, a panel of guests, and robust audience participation.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Wait, did I do that?

unknown 30:16

No.

SPEAKER_04 30:16

The show tackled controversial issues, abortion, atheism.

SPEAKER_07 30:20

Didn't I just say that? Yeah, you did read all that. Um Donnie do a lot of editing stuff.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

Donahue's willingness to address taboo subjects made the show a lightning rod for both praise and criticism. Stop laughing.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

He was the first to host an openly gay man on television in 1968, and his show became a format for marginalized voices. Donahue's influence extended beyond television. He helped shape public discourse and inspired a generation of talk show hosts, most notably Oprah Winfrey. Donahue is widely regarded as the father of the modern talk show. His emphasis on audience engagement and social relevance set the standard for the genre. The show's decline in the 1990s as tabloid talk shows gained prominence marked the end of an era but cemented Donahue's legacy as a pioneer.

SPEAKER_07 31:11

For sure.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

The Oprah Winfrey Show began as AM Chicago in 1984, rebranded under Winfrey's name in 1986, and quickly became the highest-rated daytime talk show in American history. Oprah's format blended personal confessions, self-help, celebrity interviews, and philanthropy. Signature segments included Oprah's book club. Which she still does. And her favorite things, you get a car, and you get a car. And high-profile interviews with figures like Michael Jackson and Tom Cruise.

SPEAKER_07 31:48

Now she comes on um CBS Mornings where her bestie works, uh Gail King. Yeah. And she does like once a month, does her book club and she brings the author in, and it's like a whole segment in the morning. But yeah, Oprah was definitely one of the ones I watched Oprah. I used to watch Oprah all the time, too.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

Uh Oprah's show was known for its emotional depth and cultural influences. Notable moments include her public disclosure of childhood sexual abuse, the infamous You Get a Car giveaway, and the mad cow disease episode that led to a high-profile lawsuit from Texas cattle ranchers, which Oprah won. The show also sparked controversy for featuring alternative medicine advocates and for its role in the oprification of American culture, turning personal confessions into public therapy. And she's also responsible for Dr. Phil.

SPEAKER_07 32:42

And Dr. Oz. I will not forgive her for either of those. No, me either. And I'm sure she doesn't forgive herself either. I'm sure not.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

I'm sure she cries into her pile of money. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_07 32:52

Oprah's influence.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

No offense, Oprah, if you're listening.

SPEAKER_07 32:55

Yeah, man, you earned every cent.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

Oprah's influence, I'm just jealous. Um, extended for far beyond television. She was credited with breaking taboos, promoting literacy, and fostering a culture of empathy and self-improvement. The Oprah effect could turn books into bestsellers and products into national sensations. The show's Global Reach and Philath Philanthropic Initiatives that made Winfrey one of the most powerful figures in media. Sally originally in touch with Sally Jesse Raphael premiered in 1983 and ran for 19 seasons, producing over 3,800 episodes.

SPEAKER_07 33:37

It's amazing how the longevity of these shows. Well, although reality TV, I guess, now is doing five and they run five days a week.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

Yeah, true. Um all year long. Yeah. So how do you say what a season was?

SPEAKER_07 33:53

Yeah. I th well back then didn't seasons used to run like September to June. Yeah, but I like we knew when the premiere of every show was gonna come on and when the season finales were gonna be, and then in the summer there was no shows. But I feel like they ran through the summer too, though. I was gonna say that's when we would watch them as kids. Yeah, talk shows ran through. We wouldn't have watched them during the school year. I mean, I did because Oprah came on at four here. Oh. I'm thinking of like daytime. Daytime, daytime. Although the soaps were on then.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

Well, and some of these came on in the morning, and some of them came on in the afternoon. True. All talk shows all the time.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

You get a talk show.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Um Raphael's show was among the first to feature a female host in the audience participation issue-driven format. The program focused on personal stories, family drama, and social issues, often incorporating questions from the audience. Sally's topics ranged from I survive despite my parents, to my husband wears dresses. The show was known for its moderate, empathetic tone, though it occasionally courted controversy with episodes on race and sexuality. Raphael distinguished herself from Peers by emphasizing human interest and avoiding the most extreme tabloid tactics. Sally's longevity and influence helped normalize the presence of women in daytime talk and inspired future hosts. The show blend of seriousness and lightheartedness made it a staple of the 90s television. You want to go ahead and do that while we before we move on to the next ones. I will go. I'm just breezing over the author or the hold on, everybody. Just listen to this.

SPEAKER_07 35:58

I thought it was 84. What did I say?

SPEAKER_03 36:01

83.

SPEAKER_07 36:01

It is 84. I just want to make sure we get our timelines correct. Thank you. I want to be in the right year. I don't know. Okay. I don't even know what year it is now. I don't know. Um not 1984. Okay. Damn it. Um, all right. April 23rd. Today all in caps. Oh shit. First day back at school. And then I spelled P U with capital P, capital E, capital U. And an exclamation point. That is a way to spell it. That is some P U right there. Um, a lot, and I'm really disappointed in myself because I made a lot all one word here. That's something I learned later, I guess. Um, of people were absent. Imagine that. Yeah, nobody ever went to school. Um when I got home later, I did homework because I was a nerd. Um, put my pattern together for my dolls. So I must have been making clothes because I did used to make doll clothes, and played with my sister. Oh. Yeah. Short entry today. Well, you know, it was the first day back. I was gonna say it was probably a lot. I was exhausted. And nobody was at school for me to talk about. So that's true. Nothing happened.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

They were all absent. They just did school shit to get back into it. Yep. Geraldo from 1987 to 1998.

SPEAKER_07 37:21

I never know how to feel about Geraldo.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 37:25

Um, I just never know. I think he's an okay guy, but he just seems like such a sleaze bag.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

In that documentary, they kind of make you feel better about Geraldo.

SPEAKER_07 37:34

Yeah. Yeah. I think he was, I don't know. Anyway, proceed.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Was hosted by journalist Geraldo Rivera and produced over 2,100 episodes. The show began as a taploid talk show talk program, featuring single-issue panel discussions with everyone, everyday people, and a heavy emphasis on audience interaction. Geraldo became infamous for its controversial style and in sensational topics. The most notorious incident occurred in 1988 when a brawl between white supremacist and blackslash Jewish activists left Riviera with a broken nose, a moment that epitomized the genre's embrace of conflict. The show also featured episodes on men in lace panties and televised sex change operations. A little bit problematic there, Heroldo. Yeah. Geraldo's willingness to court controversy and physical altercations set a precedent for later shows like Jerry Springer. I mean, he this that's a whole Rivera's transition to more news-oriented programming in the late 90s reflected the genre's shifting fortunes.

SPEAKER_07 38:44

Because he started out as a legit newscaster, maybe. Yes. He went in and out of the tablet.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 38:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

The Jerry Springer show debuted in 1991 as a traditional talk show focused on political issues, but quickly transformed in the archetype of trash TV by 1994. The show became synonymous with onset fights, lurid confessions, and audio chants of Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. Its format encouraged guests to confront their adversaries, often resulting in physical altercations. Especially bitches be tripping on that show. Yeah. Springer's show featured topics like I married a horse, incest, adultery, and hate groups. The program's embrace of violence and spectacle led to widespread criticism and even city council hearings in Chicago over the legality of onset fights. The murder of Nancy Campbell Panitz by her ex-husband after appearing on the show brought renewed scrutiny and legal challenges, which we will talk about in a little bit. Okay. She wasn't the only one killed because of the show.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

I know. I've got to I know.

SPEAKER_04 39:54

I know. I just want to get them all in here and then Okay. At its peak, Jerry Springer surpassed Oprah in the ratings and became a symbol of American excess and moral decline. The show's influence extended globally, inspiring international adaptations and parodies. Springer himself acknowledged the show's absurdity, famously stating, I do a circus, there's just no lions. Oh yeah from 91 to 2003.

SPEAKER_07 40:24

Jenny Jones.

SPEAKER_04 40:25

Initially focusing on cooking, fashion, and celebrities before shifting to tabloid topics in its second season.

SPEAKER_07 40:31

Because nobody cared about recipes and no.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

That was what morning shows were for. Exactly. The show became known for episodes featuring secret crushes, makeovers, and relationship drama with a heavy emphasis on audio and participation. The most infamous episode revealing same-sex crushes, taped in March of 95, led to the murder of guest Scott Amador by Jonathan Schmidt three days after taping. The incident sparked a national debate over the ethics of ambush television and resulted in a high-profile negligence lawsuit against the show, which was ultimately overturned on appeal. The Amador case became a watershed moment for the genre, promoting industry-wide reflection on guest welfare and production ethics. The show's blend of sensationalism and occasional social relevance made it both a target of criticism and cultural touchstones. And I do think that that episode has never aired. I think you're right. Because it was three days after that was taped, so they knew.

SPEAKER_07 41:33

Yeah, that was awful.

SPEAKER_04 41:35

Ricky Lake, 93 to 2004, targeted a younger Gen X audience focusing on relationship issues, youth culture, and personal drama. The show distinguished itself with its energetic hosts, surprise reveals, and confrontational titles like Back Off Boys, I'm a Lesbian, you'll never have me. Ricky Lake's show occasionally courted controversy, such as the confrontation with Fred Phelps at the West and the Westboro Baptist Church, and episodes that drew protests from GLAD over perceived homophobia. The show's focus on youth issues and diversity broadened the genre's appeal. Lake's success inspired a wave of imitators and helped redefine the talk show audience. The show's format and style influenced later programs and contributed to the rise of reality television. Montel Williams, 91 to 2008, blended tabloid topics and inspirational stories and self-help themes. Williams, as a former Navy officer, often focused on reunion, overcoming adversity, and later psychic greetings with Sylvia Brown. Oh yeah. Well, the uh parent I saw a thing on his producers, and they were like, he believed in her full hearted. While the show initially mirrored the sensationalism of its peers, it gradually shifted more uplifting content, particularly in its later years. Williams' openness about his multiple sclerosis brought attention to health issues and advocacy. Montel show was praised for its positive approach and for providing a platform for marginalized voices. Its longevity and adapt uh adaptability reflected the genre's capacity for reinvention. Now, this one, I'm sorry, is my favorite, and that's why I saved him for last. Plus, he was the one that ran until the latest Maury. The Maury Povit show ran from 91 to 2022. Dang becoming the longest running daytime talk show with a single host. The show became synonymous with paternity tests, lie detector results, and dramatic confrontations over infidelity. And family dysfunction. Notable, uh, the phrase, you are not the father, I was just gonna say that, became a pop cultural meme, emblematic of the show's focus on personal crisis and public revelation. Maury's formulatic approach drew both criticism and enduring popularity, with the show maintaining strong ratings even as the genre declined. Maury's influence extended to the creation of court shows like Paternity Court and inspired a generation of reality-based programming. The show's focus on real-life consequences and emotional catharsis resonated with viewers, even as critics dis decried the exploitation of vulnerable guests. And in the documentary that I watched, he was talking about South Park was making fun of him. And he called them and they thought that he they were he was like gonna flip out on, and he asked them if he could have a couple of the cells from the cartoon, and they sent it to him, and he has them up on his wall.

Lie Detectors And Lawyer PSA

SPEAKER_07 45:03

Oh he said it's my hall of shame. Yeah. I I mean it's kind of like SNL. I mean, except for this season. I don't suppose anybody that's on South Park this season is too feels too honored to be on there because it's all very politically based this season and it's funny as fuck. But yeah, that's really, really cool. The problem with the you are not the father episodes is it was a lot of slut shaming. Yeah. Because if you thought he was the dad and he's not, I'm not the lie detector. The lie detector said the test results say Oh gosh, lie detectors drive me nuts. Okay, they're not all the true crime stuff I watch. Like, why do we even bother?

unknown 45:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 45:52

I would never pass a lie detector test because my anxiety is so bad. I they so they're non-admissible in court.

SPEAKER_04 46:00

Right. So why use them? Because it is a tactic. Because if you think that you're going if you think that if you say no, I'm not gonna do a lie detector test, then they have to be like, well, why are you not? Yeah, so that's suspicious. If you fail it, even if you don't fail it, they can say you failed it. Right. And so basically it is a lie detector is a tool to get you to confess.

SPEAKER_07 46:24

Yeah, and I did actually watch a show the other night where the cop actually said that. He was like, It's not admissible in court, but it can lead to other things.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Yes, they use it to get you, to it's a gotcha thing. So if you are ever in a situation where they think you are, don't take the lie, just say no. Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_07 46:47

No, no, it's like they're suspicious either way, so which one is it?

SPEAKER_04 46:50

Do not ever take the lie detector. Okay. I agree. And get a lawyer immediately, and they will tell you not to take the lie detector. Just keep your trap shut, whether you're innocent or guilty or you were on the moon at the time of the incident, you just say the whole time, do not ever stop saying, I want to speak to a lawyer.

SPEAKER_07 47:07

Yes, yes. Don't that is so true. They can't. They literally cannot, they can, you can talk, but they can't.

SPEAKER_04 47:17

And that's what they fucking do. They get you in that room and you say, I want to speak to a lawyer, and then they bring you lunch, and then they bring you sodas. Stick to it. And they're trying to get you to talk in casual and you're being recorded the whole fucking time. Yep. Ask for a lawyer. Always. Immediately. Always.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

PSA.

Behind The Scenes Guest Wrangling

SPEAKER_04 47:40

A defining feature of the tabloid talk show here, Era, was the aggressive recruitment of guests. Producers relied on carts. Notices posted during episodes inviting viewers to call if they fit certain types. Have a secret you want to reveal? These calls were screened by production assistants who sought out the most compelling and dramatic stories. Guests were typically offered travel, lodging, and sometimes lost wages, but were not paid for their appearance. Producers conducted pre-interviews, verified stories through documentation, and in some cases monitored guests in green rooms to ensure authenticity. The goal was to maximize emotional impact and ensure on-air fireworks. Behind the scenes, producers often coached guests to heighten conflict, as revealed in the Netflix documentary, Jerry Springer Fights Camera Action. Staff would rev up guests before taping, sometimes encouraging them to confront their adversaries physically or emotionally. Alcohol was sometimes provided, and mock interviews were really used to elicit strong reactions. Given the frequency of onset violence, security became a central concern. Shows like Jerry Sprief Jerry Springer employed professional security teams, including off-duty police officers and lady, later celebrity bodyguards like Steve Wilkes, who became a cult figure and eventually hosted his own show. Despite these measures, fights and injuries were common, and the spectacle of chaos became a selling point for the genre. Audience members played an active role, often encouraging encouraged to jeer, cheer, or ask provocative questions. Some shows like Geraldo and Sally credited the audience with settling the setting the tone and pace of the program. The dynamic between guests, hosts, and audience created a face, a feedback it looks like Facebook. It's not a feedback loop that amplified drama and spec spectacle. By the mid-90s, onset violence had become a hallmark of tabloid talk shows. The Jerry Springer show in particular was notorious for its frequent brawls, chair throwing, and physical confrontations. During one week in April of '98, the show averaged five to twelve fights per day. The violence was so pervasive that it prompted a Chicago City Council hearing to determine whether guests should be arrested for assault. That's why you like that show so much.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

I do love Jerry.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Other shows like Heraldo also experienced on-air violence, most famously The 88 Brawl that left Rivera with a broken news. The Morton Downey Jr. Show and Sally similarly featured physical altercations, though often less extreme. Yeah. In response to criticism and legal threats, some producers implemented stricter screening and security measures. Guests were required to sign waivers, provide identification, and undergo background checks. Security teams were expanded, and some shows temporarily banned fighting on air. Despite these efforts, the genre embraced the genre's embrace of conflict remained a central draw. The spectacle of violence, real or staged, became a defining feature of the era and a source of ongoing controversy. Daytime talk shows attracted a diverse audience, but certain demographics were particularly prized by advertisers. Women aged 18 to 49 were the prime target. That would be us. As they were seen as key decision makers for household purchases. Shows like Oprah and Sally appealed to older women, while Ricky Lake and Jenny Jones targeted younger viewers, included, including teenagers and college students. Jenny Jones was the one that had, I think, was the one that had the goth kids on it. That sounds right. Yeah. The genre's appeal across Rachel and socio and economic lines. We have many shows featuring guests and topics relevant to marginalized communities. The confessional therapeutic style of Oprah and the confrontational drama of Springer each found loyal following. The 90s saw fierce competition for ratings. At their peak, shows like Oprah, Jerry, and the Jenny Jones show drew millions of viewers per episode. In 98, Jerry Springer briefly surpassed Oprah as the top-rated daytime talk show, drawing at least 8 million viewers per episode. Jenny also experienced a rating surge after its reformat, becoming the third most watched talk show of the season. The genre's reliance on recycled topics and escalating sensationalism led to the audience fatigue. By the early 2000s, ratings began to decline across the board, with many shows canceled or retooled to focus on less controversial content. First run syndication was the dominant business model for daytime talk show. Producers sold their programs directly to local stations, allowing for flexible scheduling. This model enabled shows to bypass network constraints and tailor content to local tastes.

SPEAKER_07 52:48

True.

SPEAKER_04 52:50

It is kind of weird though. I don't know. I I blame the internet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:57

That works too.

Ratings Wars Then Genre Decline

SPEAKER_04 52:58

By the 2010s, I mean we are on our phone all the time. Um by the 2010s and 20s, the economics of syndication became less favorable. The rise of streaming, podcasts, and expanded local news programming siphoned viewers away from daytime TV. See?

SPEAKER_03 53:13

I blame the internet.

SPEAKER_04 53:15

Advertising revenues declined, and the high cost of talent, production, and staff became unsustainable for many shows. As a result, major studios like NBC Universal began winding down first-run syndication, focusing instead on distributing existing program libraries and off-network titles. The cancellation of long-running shows like Maury, the Steve Wilco show, the Kelly Clarkson show in the mid-2020s marked the end of an era. Tabloid talk shows were the subject of intense media scrutiny and academic debate. Critics described the genre's embrace of trash TV, arguing that it's promoted it promoted immorality, exploited vulnerable guests, and degraded public discourse. The term opification was coined to describe the culture of public confessions and therapeutic revelations that permeated the genre. I feel like also when these shows were winding down is kind of when we all were like, hey, you know what's not cool. Some saying, like, maybe, maybe we shouldn't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_07 54:24

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

Maybe we should not be hard.

SPEAKER_07 54:29

Encourage this.

SPEAKER_04 54:30

Yeah. Academic analysis such as analysis? Nope. Academics such as no, goddammit, academic analysis such as Kevin Glenn's tabloid culture explored the genre's role in reflecting and shaping cultural struggles over race, gender, sexuality, and class. Some scholars argued that tabloid talk shows provided a platform for marginalized voices and challenged mainstream norms, while others warned of the dangers of normalizing deviance and blurring the boundaries between reality and spectacle. The rise of sensationalist talk show prompted regulatory scrutiny, particularly from the FCC, which enforced rules against the broadcasts of obscene, incessant, or profane materials, especially during hours when children were likely to be watching. Shows were required to bleep profanity, pixelate nudity, and avoid explicit content through enforcement, although enforcement was often reactive and context-depending. Legal challenges also arose from incidents of onset violence and guest warfare. The most significant was the Scott Amador and Nancy Campbell panance, both of which led to lawsuits against the producers and renewed calls for industry reform. The tabloidization of American media in the 80s and 90s was shaping shaped by broader social and political currents. The Reagan era's emphasis on deregulation, individual out individualism. Individualism. I am having a tough time. It was my day off. I was gonna say you were off today. You're off your kilter. No, I'm market-driven media. I can't read. Created fertile grass because I've been playing on the internet. Oh you've done jack shit and watching hoarders. While the explosion of cable and syndicate television expanded the range of available content. The evolution of the talk show format was influenced by other genres, including soap operas and game shows. The conventional serialized storytelling of soap operas provided a template for the emotional arcs and dramatic reveals of tackle tabloid talk shows. Game show contributed elements of surprise, competition, and audience participation. And I never really thought of it that way. That soap operas, that's I mean, basically they were just an extension of the soap opera.

SPEAKER_07 56:56

Yeah, exactly.

Murders Lawsuits And Aftercare Changes

SPEAKER_04 56:57

Like, oh, I was in a coma for 37 days, and now my baby mama is pregnant. The rise of reality television in the late 90s and 2000s drew heavily from the talk show playbook, incorporating real-life conflict, personal conf confessions, and voyeuristic spectacle. Shows like Survivor, Big Brother, and the Real World owed a debt to the innovation of the talk show era. The tabloid talk show format was not confined to the United States. International adaptations proliferated in the United Kingdom, Europe, Latin America, and Asian. British shows like the Jeremy Kyle Show and Vanessa emulated the American style, though often with a tamer approach and more host involvement. In the Philippines, face-to-face became a popular example of the genre reaching its peak in the early 2010s. You looked like you were gonna say something. Nope. So the murder of Scott Amador on the Jenny Jones side. On March 6th, 1995, because this this is on March 6th, 1995, this is covered on like every true crime show ever. The Jenny Jones show taped an episode titled Revealing Same Sex Crushes, in which Scott Amador, a gay man, revealed his romantic interest in acquaintance Jonathan Schmidt. Schmitz, also who identified as straight, reacted with apparent good humor on air but became increasingly disturbed afterwards. Three days later, he shot and killed Amador at his home, citing humiliation and emotional distress. The incident sparked a national outcry and led to a negligence lawsuit against the show. The jury initially awarded Amador's family$25 million, but the decision was overturned on appeal, with the court ruling that the murder was unforeseeable and the show was not liable. The case became a touchstone for debate over media ethics, guest welfare, and the responsibilities of producer. And they have in this documentary, you know who's not on there, Jenny Jones is not.

SPEAKER_03 59:01

Oh no, is she alive?

SPEAKER_04 59:02

I feel like she died. Oh look. Okay. Continue. Um, but they have Maury talk, or not Maury, Montel talking about it. And he was like, could I have held up on that stand and done the same thing as her? And he was like, No, no, I couldn't. He was like, I think he was, yeah. Is she still alive?

SPEAKER_07 59:22

She is. She's 79 years old. Oh, they're all old.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

I was telling Nicole, did I tell you all too that Sally is 91? You did. I don't remember what I say on air. Um in July 2000, Nancy Campbell Pants was murdered by her ex-husband, Ralph Pantz, after the couple appeared on an episode of the Jerry Springer show titled Secret Mistress Confronted. The episode, which aired the same day as the murder, featured a confrontation between Nancy, Ralph, and his new wife. After a contentious court hearing and the airing of the episode, Ralph Pance killed Nancy in her home. The case reignited criticism of the talk show genre and prompted calls for greater oversight and accountability. Jerry Springer and his producers denied responsibility, arguing that the show did not cause the murder. Nevertheless, the incident underscored the potential dangers of exploiting personal conflict for entertainment. And I imagine that they could get away with it because of the Jenny Jones ruling.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:26

Well, and that is true. And in both cases, but especially that one, a lot of husbands kill their wives.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:35

I mean, if you're a wife and you get killed, most likely it is your husband that did it.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:40

Yeah, I watch a lot of true crime shows, and it's a lot of men. And you know, the same thing. Some with um some men just can't handle. I mean, he probably was fine with it on the stage, a little nervous when the gay man revealed that he had a crush on him. But it was probably the few days afterward with all his friends making fun of him and all that stuff that led to.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:09

I'm not gonna say what I have seen, I have heard this case on many a um podcast, and I do think that something happened once they got home.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:25

Like he made a pass at him, like he interpreted that he was cool with it. Yes. Yeah. I mean, still not justification to kill him. No, you should.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

You shouldn't kill people, it's not yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:38

Unless you really have a good reason.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:39

Especially because they're gay. Like get over it. Yeah, that's not a good reason. Definitely not.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:44

I mean, if they're gay and they break into your house and try to kill you, that's that's when you can get it. Yes. But just because they're gay.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:51

Yeah, and I like I said, I watch a lot of true crime. Haven't seen a lot of gay men breaking into houses. No.

FCC Pressure And Cultural Fallout

SPEAKER_04 1:01:58

Probably very rare. Um, some other notable controversies. Geraldo's 88 Brawl, a fight between white supremacists and black Jewish activists, resulted in Geraldo Rivera suffering a broken nose, drawing national attention to the risks of on-air confrontation. Oprah's mad cow disease lawsuit. And I totally had forgotten about mad cow. Do you remember? I was cheeseburgers. I eat a lot. I was like, I am definitely gonna get mad cow. She was ultimately found. Oh, wait, I missed it. Oprah Winfrey was sued by Texas cattle ranchers after expressing concerns about mad cow disease on air. She was ultimately found not liable, but the case highlighted the influence and risks of talk show commentary. Ricky Lake's confrontation with Fred Phelps, Lake ejected Phelps and his followers from her show after they disrupted an episode on AIDS, demonstrating the challenges of managing extremist guests. Why would you have those fucking not jumping? I don't care if you are a Westboro chap. Yeah. And you're listening. I know you're not because but they are fucking out of control. Crazy ass.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:10

Crazy. Crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

You probably could kill one of them. That's fine. Don't do that. And don't say I said it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:18

Don't tell them I sent you. Audience fatigue, competition from cable and streaming, changing demographic. See, I said all this. Regulatory and legal pressure, shift to local news programming. Which that's true too. Like now, like there's like a four o'clock news or a four thirty, or like the Del Marva now.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:45

There is. And my it's funny, this past week, um, my boss and I are I think he's a year younger than me. Um, and then my assistant, she's in like her mid-30s. And I was just talking about randomly talking about my morning, and I was like, Yeah, I got up and I turned on the news and I made the coffee and you know, whatever. And uh my assistant was like, You turned on the news. And my boss was like, Yeah, he's like, actually, like it hit him like a light bulb. He's like, I think that's a Gen X thing because I think we all do it because that's what our parents did. You got up in the morning, you turned on the news. Turn on CNN or something. Yeah. I mean, yeah. For I mean, I have to turn the news on in the morning, it's just automatic. I want to see what the weather's gonna be for the day.

Delaware Weather Whiplash

SPEAKER_04 1:04:39

I don't really want to hear what's like it's gonna change at every second. This okay, I just want to tell you all about the weather that we've been having here in the state of Delaware. Yeah. So what nature is crazy. She is by motherfucking bowler. So we had two feet of snow, yes, which is insane for us. Yes, and then it was 86 degrees, yes, and then we had tornadoes, yes, and now it's 30 some degrees again. Yes. This is within the span of about two and a half weeks.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:16

Yes. We actually had a day that we woke up to 67 degrees, and by the time I left work that afternoon, it was snowing. It was snowing, literally like snowing hard and 33 degrees or something crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:34

We that was off of the two 86 degree days, and then it was stick, it was snowing so fucking hard that it was sticking on ground that had been 86 degrees. It's fucking insane.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:46

Yeah, it's been super nutty around here lately.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:49

Craziness. Uh so yeah. That's why we have to watch the fucking weather around here. You have to leave it on all day long because you never know what's gonna happen. Because it just changes by the minute. It just every second could be something different. Did a hurricane can run up on you? No, no. Yeah, they confirmed a um I saw that. Tornado close. Somewhere in Kent, I saw that. Mm-hmm. Uh uh. Um, so what happened in the Schmidt's was the convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to 25 to 50 years in prison. Later released on parole in 2017. What? The Ambedore family's negligence lawsuit against the show. Uh was overturned.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:34

I guess we see whose side the law was on.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:39

Uh Ralph Panitz was convicted of secondary murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole. The show faced criticism for its handling of the situation, including allegations that producers threatened to withhold travel reimbursement unless Nancy returned to the stage. Ew. Yeah. That's gross. Um the tragedies associated with the Jenny Jones and Jerry Springer show forced the industry to confront its ethical obligations. Um, enhanced screening, aftercare services, shows began offering counseling and support to guests. Safety protocols were strengthened. Transparency and consent.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Yeah. Consent.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:21

Wild. We're required to sign detailed consent forms and were informed of the potential risk of participation. Uh, despite these reforms, the legacy of the talk show boom remains mixed. While the genre provided a platform for marginalized voices and fostered public dialogue on important issues, it also exploited personal pain for profit and contributed to the coarsening of public discourse. It really was the wild, wild west for a while there.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:52

Um its influence can be seen in the rise of reality television and the ongoing fascination with personal drama and spectacle, uh, Survivor, Big Brother, and the real world, court shows and spin-offs, podcast and streaming, just because anybody can have a fucking podcast these days. Anybody. If you just have to buy a microphone and learn how to edit. And you really don't have to do that. I don't. The talk show boom of the 80s and 90s was the defining chapter in American media history. It transformed daytime television from earnest community forums into arenas of spectacle, confession, and controversy. Each uh Donahue Oprah, Sally, Geraldo, Springer, Jerry Jones, Jenny Jones, not Jerry Jones, because I fucking hate Jerry Jones. I can't believe he just said that. I was, I know. Ricky, I'm just trying to put him in here with the other.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:43

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:44

Ricky Lake, he feels like he could have done his own. Yeah. Ricky Lake, Montel Williams, and Maury each left their mark, shaping public discourse and reflecting the anxieties and aspirations of their time. Was fueled by economic innovation, cultural change, and a relentless pursuit of ratings. Its decline was participation of audience fatigue, legal and ethic ethical crises. Uh it endure today, and in the talk show era endores in the confessional culture, and television continues to evolve. The lessons of the talk show boom remain as relevant as ever, a testament to the power and peril of putting real lives on display.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:23

Woo. Cherry, cherry, cherry.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:29

So you texted me earlier today and said this was going to be a fun one. And you were absolutely correct. Um it makes me happy that we lived through it and even more happy that it's over.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:42

It's like just with so much other stuff. You're like, when I was watching that, I was like, oh yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:51

Yeah, yeah. And it was something so new. And a lot of those shows you said started in like 91. That's when I graduated high school. So I was just becoming a young adult. And we watched them all, and it's like and I always worked in restaurants, as did you, so I was home a lot during the day and able to watch it. And I remember Donahue as a kid, and it makes sense now because when did you say 83 or something? He started something like that. So I would have been really kind of too young, but I still don't absolutely know I was Donahue was. Yeah, a million percent. Um Sally was like he always felt like a grandpa.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:28

Yeah, he always did seem he was very comforting.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:30

Yeah. He was probably like 35 though, because when you look back, people look so old.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:38

It's just one of those things where like you think back to it and you're like, uh, yeah, that's a that's a thing that happened then.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:45

Yeah, yeah. It was wild, and there were no no rules, no, no borders, no lines to cross.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:55

What a wild time we all grew up in. We did, just crazy. Like the more that we do this podcast, the more I'm like, God damn. I know. What in the hell?

SPEAKER_07 1:11:05

Like, I know the internet you can find anything, but you have to go look for it. This was just right there, just and we only had like three channels, so you you pretty much had to watch it.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:15

Yeah, to see what Jerry was and and Maury, and I love Maury.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:20

Yeah, I couldn't remember what uh Morton Downey Jr. looked like. I had to look him up while you were talking. Yeah, he was real used car salesman looking kind of guy. I don't remember his. I feel like I remember the name more. Yeah, like even when I looked at the picture at first, I was like, mmm, but then I scrolled through and found some older ones. I was like, yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I don't remember the show particularly though. I never cared for the Ricky Lake show. No, me neither.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:49

We might have been too old for it though. Maybe she she might have been going for Yeah, she just didn't appeal to me. Yeah, me either. I did watch Jenny, the Jenny Jones show. I watched more I watched Jerry. I didn't watch Jerry Jerry. I didn't watch Jerry Jo Jerry Springer religiously. I didn't either, but if it was on I would watch exactly, it would catch your attention.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:12

And I think I watched it more early on. I feel like I remember a time where I was just like, all right, this is this is enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:18

I think honestly, a lot of the stuff that we and maybe it's why it got to a point where it did was I think we just put the shit on as background noise. Like when you got home from school and you were there by yourself, you just put the TV on just to have it on to have noise in the house.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:36

And yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:38

You know, I think that's probably they got ratings because we were turning on the TV and we're on nothing else to do. Yeah, and you know, we'd be in and out of the better guiding light.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:51

So you're you know, I think we weren't gonna watch grandma shows.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:55

No. Well, either that or it was, you know, Gilligan's Island.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:00

Although I will say in my early 20s, I was a huge young and the restless fan.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:04

I I know that.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:06

Well, you were a big guiding light fan. I loved Guiding Light.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:09

You did. That was Christine, she made me watch that. Yes, yes. My mom watched General Hospital when I was growing up, though.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:17

Oh, that was the other channel. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:20

My mom, I remember Luke and Laura's wedding.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:23

Oh, yes. Very much.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:26

That's another thing that's like crazy that it's yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:29

For anyone who hasn't watched it, The Young and the Restless literally still has the same people playing the same characters.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:34

I had it on for I I don't know. I think I had the news on and a doctor's office.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:39

And it was just going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:41

I don't think I because again, I just put it on for background. The same thing with the news. Like, I put it on for background. I'm fucking around on the internet and playing with the bird, and and it was on. And I heard him say Victor, and I was like, no fucking way. Yep. There's no fucking way. Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:59

Yep. I'm pretty sure it's a um good for them. Weekend of Bernie situation at this point.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:06

I mean, good for Victor and Victoria.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:08

Nicholas.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:09

I know. All of them. I know. And I didn't even really care. I watched the show because it was on before Guy Light. Right. What was the one in between?

SPEAKER_07 1:14:16

I was trying to remember because it was only a half-hour one. Bold and the Beautiful. That's it. Yep. It was a spin-off, wasn't it? I think so. Yeah. Yeah, because the leading like blonde-haired lady, I think she had been on Young and the Restless or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:35

Well, they spun off. I feel like they spun off of Victor's business.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:39

Right. Oh, yeah. Because his fashion business. Yep. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:43

See? I haven't why I have not watched anything.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:46

You could literally turn it on right now and just pick up where you left off. 25 years later. Everybody's cheating on everybody. It's crazy, right? Everybody's in a coma.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:58

I think that's what happened though. I think, and we still have to do it because I know if I'm just fucking around in the house, I have to put music on or the TV's on, or you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:07

Absolutely. I have to. I like my silence, but I almost prefer that in the car most of the time. Yes. Like I like to drive with no noise. But um Yeah, at home I do like to have the background noise on. That's why I can't commit to like a movie or anything, because I get distracted easy and I'm just like Well, I come I've been committing, I've been trying to um simmer down my gambling. Yeah. Not that I'm really bad, but I don't need to spend as much time on there as I have been. Heard. So I am committing to like binge watching shows or movies now because I won't pit hold my phone because if it's something I really want to watch.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:51

That's the problem.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:52

Because I want to follow it. So that's why I've been watching a lot of like movies and and binge watching TV shows lately. If I put on something that's murderous, yeah. It's the same story, different show. Yeah. Or something I've seen before, I'm not gonna stay out of my phone. But yeah. Yeah. Everybody gets murdered. It's pretty sad though that I have to make myself watch TV so I don't play on my phone.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:22

Speaking of murder, um, guess who I saw yesterday? Ooh. My little buddy from the parking lot. Really? And guess who does not walk near the steps anymore? Even in broad motherfucking daylight. I didn't see it. I wasn't outside. I was uh giving the bird a path in the window, and I saw him coming, and I was like, you're lucky I have the bird out right now because we can't go outside. And he took a wide turn around, went behind the cars instead of in front of him through.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:52

I love the little laser pointer idea though. I know, right? You could have done that perfectly through that window. Damn it.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:58

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I need a laser pointer. I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:03

Anyway. Um thank you for listening. Thank you. Thank you for putting us on in the background. Yes. Yep, yep. Uh, you can find us where all the podcasts happen. All of them. Uh you can find us on the socials. Yeah, please do. At Like Whatever Pod. Um, you can find us on the YouTubes.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:29

We indeed have a website. We do www.likewhateverpod.com. You can send us an email about what your topic would be if you had gone on a talk show. Love it. Or don't like whatever.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:49

Whatever. Bye, Jerry.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:53

Jerry.