Do Effing Better

Lorena Bobbitt’s name got frozen in time as a late-night punchline, but the real story is about domestic violence, marital rape, and what happens when the public treats a survivor’s trauma like entertainment. We sit with how the 90s media machine framed the case, why so many of us absorbed the wrong takeaway, and why that kind of coverage still shapes how survivors are treated today.

We also dig into the systems that fail people long before a headline happens: the ugly reality of trying to get a protective order, the legal barriers that once made marital rape nearly impossible to prosecute, and the way abusers use control, money, fear, and immigration threats to keep someone trapped. Along the way, we share concrete domestic violence resources, including hotline and shelter options, because awareness is not enough if people cannot find help quickly and safely.

From there, the conversation widens into what “believe women” actually demands, how victim blaming shows up in everyday language, and why accountability can’t depend on whether a story is convenient. If you’ve ever caught yourself rethinking a joke you heard or a headline you remember, this is a chance to revisit it with clearer eyes.

Subscribe for more, share this with someone who needs it, and please leave a review so more listeners can find the show.

Transcript

Sick Day Check In

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Welcome to Like Whatever, a podcast for, by, and about to the next. I'm Nicole, and this is my BFF Heather.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

So in case you haven't figured out yet, I'm sick.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Very, very sick. And we we have been trying to record all week, but it has not been going well. And who knows if this one's even gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

So yeah, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna try, see what happens. Yeah, yeah. I'm on day six of the flu.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

So good times. I know I checked, I checked her life 360 today, and she had not moved from her house in five days and 22 hours.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

So yeah, I got home from work Friday and I have not left since. It's been glorious. I bet.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

You know, but the whole being in the house for six days, yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

I'm so jealous.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Yeah, the whole heat wave. I was just in the air conditioning.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

So it's been hot. Um not only has it been hot, but it's been ridiculously hot. Uh like I have terrible sunburn. Um, and then today is like 60 degrees. So I I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah, Mother Nature's been an honorable role here lately. I I don't eat I can't even who the hell knows, even so we're gonna get through this as quick as possible so that Nicole can go back to bed.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yes, that is true. All right, I don't think I have any small talk. I've watched a whole bunch of TV,

Socials And The TikTok Detour

SPEAKER_02 2:20

yeah, and I've slept a lot.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

So yeah, I don't have anything.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

So all right. Well, then um before we get started, like share rate review, yes, find us on all the socials, yes, check out our website at like whatever pod.com.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yeah, oh um, sorry, right real quick. The TikTok, uh-huh. I meant to tell you this earlier. I hijacked the TikTok um because the the clothing brand Halara has a thing called the Halara Circle that if you join it, they send you free clothes every now and then and you just have to review them. Oh, and so they're sending me $50 in clothes a month. What if I put up two videos? What so if you're on the tickety talk, just go like it, don't watch it, but just go like it.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

Yeah, yeah, so it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

And it's all like athletics. Uh not I I do actually like Hilara clothes a lot because it's like leggings and shit, so it's very comfortable, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Okay, yeah, I've seen their advertisements, I've never had gotten anything. I like their dresses.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

I fucking love it. I mean, it's kind of it's a little expensive for like the Chinese stuff, but I feel like it lasts a lot longer too. Okay. I'm really not trying to do a commercial, but I really do like the brand. So it does take like forever for the shit to get here, but um, it's extremely comfortable.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

So okay, I'll check it out.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, so tick tock, like whatever pod.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Um, so let's

Why Lorena Bobbitt Got Misread

SPEAKER_02 4:05

get started then. Let's fuck around and find out about Lorena Bobbit. Yeah. So this um idea started out um to make you laugh a couple weeks ago when I first came up with this idea. Um at that point that I was feeling kind of Lorena Bobbit-y. Um, but um yeah, but then as I was doing it, it it became dark and then it became really sad. And so it it took a different turn than I expected, but I think it's gonna be some good information.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Um yeah, I I've listened to a lot of true crime podcasts on this, and and much like a lot of the things that we experienced in the 90s, um yeah, we were wrong. Yeah, we were just straight out assholes. Um yeah, she was turned into a joke, and yeah, and um much like um what's her name? Um Bill Clinton. Oh Monica Lewinsky. Monica Winsky. It's the same situation and it's extremely unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

And yeah, and it shows how the media influences.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah, it's uh we all owe her a big apology.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah, yep, yep, yep. I actually heard something, somebody else say that about Monica Lewinsky. Maybe a lady wrote a book or something, and she said the same thing. She was like, I'm oh, I think she's I maybe it was on MPR I heard it, and she was reading one of her like old diaries or something, and she was like mortified by what she had written about Monica Lewinsky back then.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

So all right, so um my resources were biography.com and people.com and trigger warning um domestic violence, rape, and women not being believed. Yeah. All right, Lorena Bobbit Bobbitt, formerly Lorena Gallo, was born May 15, 1969. Uh, she was an Ecuadorian immigrant. John Wayne Bobbitt and Lorena Bobbitt married on June 18th, 1989, uh, and their relationship received international press coverage in 1993 when Lorena severed John's penis with a kitchen knife while he was asleep in bed. His penis was successfully surgically reattached. Lorena, an Ecuadorian immigrant, alleged that her husband John, a bar bouncer and former U.S. Marine, had raped and abused her for years. John was charged with rape later that year, but was acquitted and subsequently starred in two pornographic films. The next year, Lorena was acquitted of assault by reason of insanity and went on to start a foundation for domestic abuse victims and their children, and the couple divorced in 1995. Um it's wild that she found insane to get away with it.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

You know, and it's unfortunate because uh I think at the time there was no such thing as spousal rape. Um just because you married someone does not mean that you gave them clock carte blanche to your body, you know, you know, yeah, because scent is still a thing, no matter if there's a ring or not involved. 100%. Yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Uh in the early hours of June 23rd, 1993, Lorena Bobbitt took an eight-inch knife from her apartment's kitchen and cut off the penis of her husband, John Lane Bobbitt. She then drove away from the apartment and threw the severed organ into a field in Manassas, Virginia. After her actions became public, the media swept in to cover everything from John's successful penis reattachment surgery to Lorena's trial in 1994. Lorena had stated that she was a victim of domestic violence throughout her marriage and that her husband had raped her shortly before she castrated him. Though John denied any abuse, Lorena was found not guilty of wounding her husband due to temporary insanity brought on by the trauma she'd endured. She was has resumed the use of her maiden name of Lorena Gallo. Lorena was born in Buquet, Ecuador, in 1969. She grew up in Caracas, Venezuela with two younger siblings. Her father worked as a dental technician, and the family led a middle-class lifestyle. After a trip to the United States, that was a gift for her quincenar. Lorena wanted to live in the country. Though her family was unsuccessful in an attempt to immigrate in 1987, she obtained a student visa. To earn money, she worked as a nanny and later took a position at a nail salon. In 1988, Lorena met John, then a U.S. Marine, at a club for enlisted men. At the time, Lorena was a community college student in Virginia. John became Lorena's first boyfriend when they subsequently began dating. The pair were married on June 18, 1989, and when Lorena was 20, and John was 22. Lorena has said that her husband became violent a few weeks after their 1989 wedding, as John hit her when she voiced disapproval of his dangerous driving when they were returning home from a bar. Per Lorena, the violence in the relationship continued from that point, with John striking and raping her. Arguments often stemmed from her questioning his spending or habit of having people stay in the apartment with no advanced notice.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Which is also it's also unfortunate because she was so young. She was.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

On June 21, 1993, Lorena began the process of filing a protective order. John has denied he was abusive during their marriage. In his version of events, Lorena was extremely jealous, and the one who hit him. If he struck her, it was while protecting himself. Yeah, that's what they all say. Yeah. His attorney stated that terminating Lorena's pregnancy was a mutual decision.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

John has offered the explanation that Lorena was upset that he planned to divorce her, putting her green card and ability to become a U.S. citizen at risk.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Well, there you have it. I mean, that's the control.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's an easy carrot to dangle. Yeah. Mm-hmm. In 1993, Lorena denied that her marriage took place because she wanted to stay in the country. She once told Vanity Fair, I thought John was very handsome. Blue eyes, a man in a uniform, you know, he was almost like a symbol, a Marine fighting for the country. I believed in this beautiful country. I was swept off my feet. I wanted my American dream. According to Lorena, in the early hours of June 23rd, 1993, her husband came home drunk. He then raped her in their apartment. After the attack, she spotted a knife when she went into the kitchen. She returned to the bedroom and cut off her sleeping husband's penis. Lorena, still holding the knife and the severed organ, then drove away from the apartment building. She tossed the penis into a field before ending up at a friend's house. At her friend's urging, Lorena contacted the police and told them where she had thrown the penis. Police located it and reattachment surgery was a success. Meanwhile, Lorena had a rape kit examination in the same hospital. News of Lorena's actions resulted in a whirlwind of media attention. Some women's rights activists thought the incident could lead to more awareness of domestic violence, but instead, the case became a tabloid sensation and fodder for comedians. In November 1993, John went on trial for marital sexual assault. Though Lorena had accused him of rape at the time, Virginia law required couples to be living separately or for serious physical injuries to occur for a charge of marital rape. Yeah, the details of it all.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

And it's the same thing also with like a restraining order. Like it's so hard to get a restraining order, and they're and it's like, well, they haven't hurt you. So yeah, that's why I'm trying to get the fucking restraining order so they don't hurt me.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

I know. I watch so many of these shows, and it is just mind-blowing. Like these women are doing everything they're supposed to do, and nobody cares.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

No, we just have to do better. We just have to do better. We have to believe women.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

My god. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Because what is that? What is the outlier? The how many women falsify rape?

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Like how how it can't be that many that it's I'll bet it's a very, very, very small percentage. Very small.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

It's just we just have to do better.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yes. Um so on that, uh, during that trial, he uh John was found not guilty. Of course. Yeah. In January 1994, Lorena's trial began. She had been charged with malicious wounding, which put her at risk for up to 20 years behind bars and possibly deportation from the United States. During the televised proceedings, Lorena testified that her husband had raped and hit her throughout their marriage. Her defense team argued that she had been tormented by years of abuse and driven temporarily insane, and that in slicing off her husband's penis, she had been subject to an irresistible impulse. The prosecution's case included a statement Lorena had given to police in which she said he always has orgasms and he doesn't wait for me to have orgasm. She later stated that the interview was inaccurate because she didn't have access to a translator. Oh, there you go. Isn't that lovely? All right, when I read that the first time, I was so pissed. Um, she's trying to explain sex in the best way that she knows how. Yeah. And they take it to mean that she says he's a selfish lover. Um, yeah, for sure. Um, during Lorena's trial, John testified that he had never committed any acts of violence against his wife. However, other witnesses cooperated that Lorena had appeared with bruises and stated that John had been hitting and shoving his wife. Friends of John said under oath that they had heard him express a liking for force sex. Outside the courtroom, there was an almost circus-like atmosphere. One radio station served up hot dogs and sliced soda. Chocolate penises and t-shirts with the slogan Manassas, a cut above the rest, were available for purchase. But not everyone considered the case a joking matter. Though they weren't the focus of much media coverage, members of the Hispanic community regularly came to the courthouse to show their respect for Lorena. Good. Yes.

Domestic Violence Hotlines And Help

SPEAKER_02 17:50

So in here, I wanted to put in some resources. Um, if you are facing violence um at home or in a relationship, there is the U.S. Department of Justice Office on Violence Against Women. Um, they have an email, ovw.info at usdoj.gov. The phone number is 202-307-6026. And they also have a website, but I'm not gonna read that. Um there is the National Domestic Violence Hotline, and so all these I did were are these ones I did national because I and then every state, everybody, I mean, everyone has, I think, is it 21131? I think so. I I don't remember what number it is. Yeah, yeah. Um, that one too will work. Uh so yeah, so the national domestic violence hotline uh is 1-800-799 and the word safe S-A-F-E, and you can talk to a live advocate. Um, or you can text start s t-a-r-t to eight eight seven eight eight, and someone will reach out to you.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

That's probably a better option. A text. Oh well, a text or the the national hotline rather than going to the DOJ because I did think of that when I put it in. I know maybe DOJ is not run. Yeah, the lunatics are running that asylum. So that rate. Maybe go with uh different domestic violence.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah,

A Quick Diary Time Capsule

SPEAKER_02 19:40

yeah, definitely. All right, should we do the diary real quick?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yeah, go ahead. All right, we're also gonna probably run this raw, guys, because I don't know how it's gonna go. So yeah, we're hearing this. There's no edits today.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

No, we're yeah, we're long distance uh um because I can't stay awake long enough to drive the hour and a half to get her to her and then get back.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

So I don't I don't really want to be in a room with her.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

I don't want to be in a room with me anymore either. All right, so last time was September, and that was my plans for when I got older, and I was way off on most of it. Yeah. Um now we're on December 27th, 1984. Wow, we are jumping. We're gonna change years soon. It won't be the 84 diary anymore. This is a short, short one. So um, this is my Xmas slumber party. Oh, I must have put a picture in here. My friends are Daphne. Yes, I've heard Sammy, Christy, and Tina. We exchanged gifts and ate snacks. Mary Xmas.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Mary Xmas. Yeah. I'm surprised if you were allowed to write Xmas and not I was probably rebelling. Keep the Christ in Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

I had it hidden deep in my diary. All right, I was gonna try not to cough, but there's one comment. Sorry. Okay, on

Trial Fallout And Life After

SPEAKER_02 21:20

to the story. Yeah. On January 25, on January 21st, 1994, Lorena was found not guilty due to temporary insanity, meaning she did not have to spend time in prison for wounding John. Following the acquittal, she was sent to a hospital for a 45-day psychiatric evaluation as required by Virginia state law, after which she was released, which is hilarious because no psychospital holds you for 45 days. No, unless you're a woman that's done something to a man and then they hold you forever. Then we need to punish you. Yeah. Um, despite her notoriety, following the attack. And trial, Lorena chose to remain in the Manassas area. When asked why by the New York Times in 2019, she responded, I live here. This is my home. Why should he have the last left? You're not wrong. That's right, girl. Lorena became a U.S. citizen in the summer of 1994. Oh, it just started pouring rain outside. Sorry. Probably not where you are. No, not yet. Um, her divorce from John was finalized in 1995. She accepted money for some of huh?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

The dog is barking. Oh you know he always likes to join in. I know. I I don't. He lays here the entire night without saying a single fucking word. The minute we start recording, he's got so much to say.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Uh let's see. She accepted money for some appearances in South America, but has said she rejected the million dollars offered if she would pose for Playboy. Again, another great exploitation.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Um, to earn a living, she worked as a cosmetologist, an administrative assistant, and a real estate agent. Uh, with the Lorena Gallo Foundation, founded in 2007, Lorena created an organization to help victims of domestic violence and their children and to raise awareness of the issue. She has explained she didn't know of the option to seek refuge in a shelter during her marriage. She has also revealed as an immigrant woman, I was often too scared to call the police for help. My abusive husband always threatened that he would have the police detain me and have me deported back to my country.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yep, there's the control.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Um, and then here I wanted to throw in a couple of shelter resources. Uh, national, there is the domestic shelters.org, um, where you can go to find a shelter near you at www.domesticelters.org. Um, and the national women's shelter network. Uh, and with that one, you go on the website and submit a form, and someone will contact you. And that's um national women's shelter network.org. All right.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

I have to I have to just interject one second. I'm sorry. I'm getting a text message because I text my sister earlier, and of course, she can't be timely in her texting. Um, I don't know if you saw the list of you probably didn't because you don't care, but the 2026 hurricane season storm names are out. And my niece's name is on it. Get out her nickname, but yeah. Oh, that's so fun. I don't know. If we get up that high, we're all in trouble. You live on the east coast and we get to the ends, you're in trouble. So she's just texting me now, and I said I sent her a picture of the list, and she just sent back, oh no.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, your niece is a bit of a hurricane. Yes, she is. Um, while attending Northern Virginia Community College after her trial, Lorena met David Bellinger. The two were friends before romantic relationship developed. Their daughter, Olivia, was born in 2005. Though Lorena has sometimes referred to Bellinger as her husband, she opted not to marry him. Wise smart, very smart, very, very smart. Uh Lorena took part in Lorena, a 2019 documentary that was produced by Jordan Peel, which I didn't realize he did that, so I'm gonna have to go watch that.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah, I didn't know that. I didn't know he did documentaries, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, and I love everything he does. Yeah. Um, the program revisited how her claims of domestic violence had been swept aside in 1993 as the media focused on John's severed penis. Lorena also served as an executive producer and narrator for the 2020 Lifetime bio epic I Was Lorraine Bobbitt. People used to judge me before, saying that I they don't believe my story. To tell the story again is more than a blessing. To me, it is an opportunity to tell it right. Lorena told Entertainment Tonight ahead of the 2020 premiere of Lifetimes, I was Lorraina Bobbitt. Lorena Bobbitt's story is one of the most infamous alleged crimes in American history. Following Lorena's accusations, John was charged with marital sexual assault, an offense that also faced a maximum sentence of 20 years. John claimed that he did not remember having sex on the night of June 23rd and denied all allegations of abuse and rape. His trial, which was not televised, spanned two days. He was ultimately found not guilty. Um let's see. One of my missions is to educate the public and young women about the red flags in dating an abuser. I go to colleges and talk to sororities, she told Time in 2018. I volunteer in local shelters for victims of domestic violence in Northern Virginia. I'm a facilitator, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychologist, but we teach them to set boundaries so eventually they end up figuring out the answer themselves. I love that she, I mean, she really did get her American dream. She thought the American dream was to get married and have a family, but she came here, had a terrible thing happen to her, and then made something beautiful out of it. Yeah. Is using it to help other people. And I mean, that really is the American dream. Yeah. Um, after his trial, John went on to have a short-lived porn career and was a recurring guest on the Howard Stern show. No pun intended. Short. He's such a classy guy. Um, he now lives in Sarasota, Florida. Of course he lives in Florida. Uh in the years since, John has been arrested several times and served jail time for violence against two different women. He has denied those allegations. During an April 2024 interview with the son, John revealed that he was diagnosed with toxic peripheral polyneuropathy, a condition linked to his time at Camp Lejeune, a notorious military base in North Carolina where the water was severely contaminated in the 1980s. John claims that the condition caused him to develop both nerve damage and osteomyelitis, a bone infection that leads to ulcers and requires skin grafts. In 2023, he had his remaining toes amputated, which he said left him unable to work. The former Marine also attributes the downfall of his marriage to Lorena to the side effects of the contamination at Lejeune. I wasn't behaving the way I should have, he told the son. Maybe I would have made better decisions if my cognitive functioning wasn't distorted by the chemicals. So did you abuse her? Did and it was the chemicals or did you not abuse her? As you said previously, that you didn't. All right, so we have a little issue. That's the end of my story. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Raffi. Oh my god, the dog. Um, and they're they're running the go-karts right now, too. So we're gonna have a little short one this this

Believing Survivors And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_01 30:35

probably. I was trying to find, I thought I heard somewhere that Howard Stern came out and apologized to her.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Um he may have. I feel like after his fame, he really regretted a lot of the things that he did.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

It said uh the chat GPT said around 2019 Stern discussed his shift away from his shock jock persona, citing therapy and a desire to make amends for past behavior, though he did not issue a specific public apology to Lorena. But I feel like he has spoken about it and has said that he I don't like Howard Stern.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

I don't either. I never do.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

No, I never did either. Um but I think a lot of this I think he has changed some and has gone back on a lot of the shit.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

I do think he got caught up in the fame, and in hindsight, he thinks a lot of that stuff wasn't such a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, I think so too. And not to toot him, but you know, people can people can grow.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

They can give credit where credit is due.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah. I don't know a whole lot about him. I just I thought I had heard it in one of the one of the many um podcasts that I've listened to about the the situation. And it's just it's just so unfortunate that you know I mean I guess we are getting better about it. Um believing women and I said better. Okay. True. Believing any women would be like doing absolutely fucking nothing where we were, yeah. And you know, like the half step up to sometimes we do shit correctly.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

But it's you know it's such a I I am glad that we no longer think like, well, when women are being abused, or you know, they say they come out and they said I was being abused, we're no longer like, Why the fuck did you stay? Like, what is wrong with like what because that's sometimes there's no other option. Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees, and sometimes they're you don't these men you know it is very easy to be beaten down physically and mentally so that you are uncapable of leaving.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Well, yeah, and not only that, but there's not only the threat that he will kill you, but a lot of men do kill the most dangerous time is when you're trying to leave.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yes, and it happens a lot, a lot and not just kill, like there, there's the woman that had acid thrown in her face in the middle of of uh uh uh uh ATT store and you know gasoline and set on fire, and you know, in public in the middle of a a street because these men beg become so enraged, they don't even know what's going on around them, their whole focus is just on hurting this person, and they're so they're so empowered, and that's part of the problem too, is that you know, of course, not all men, right? Um but but a lot of these men are so empowered to do whatever the fuck they want because they've gotten away with it, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

That that is the big problem, right? That's the other huge problem of not believing women is that when the woman does finally find the strength to say something and they poo-poo her, and he's gotten away with it, like why wouldn't he continue and get worse? Yeah, nothing's gonna happen, and and you see that in people all over the place, and you see it in spoiled kids, you know, no consequences, they're just gonna do whatever they want.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Yep, the president keeps breaking the law, nobody does anything, keeps doing keep doing it. Why not

The Crash Documentary And Accountability

SPEAKER_01 35:05

have you have you watched the Netflix documentary of the crash? Speaking of wow, did you watch?

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Oh my god, I just watched it two nights ago.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

That and that's the that's the other side of the coin. Like, you're not what you know, it it for women that get abused. The other side of that coin is men who get abused and are not believed at all.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Yeah, I mean, no one had any idea that kid was being abused. Nobody's a thing, it's a shit. It's that's friends, family, no, and the dad was even crying. Like, I can't believe he didn't, or no, it was his brother-in-law. I can't believe he didn't say anything, but I almost didn't watch that show. I was like, How are they gonna prove this was her fault? This is dumb. I'm not gonna watch it, like, but then I was like, Yeah, I'll just turn it on. I was engrossed and like, what in the world?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

And her parents, like, what the I mean, and that's that is the epitome of entitled. They let her do whatever she wanted, no consequences ever. You never did. Oh, you were bad in school. Were you really bad in school? No, I believe her. Yeah, yep, yep. Okay, first of all, what kid is not bad in school? We were all bad in school, we're all had terrible days, and we all did terrible things, and yes, our brains weren't developed yet.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

We made stupid decisions. Uh literally every kid.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

That's the one thing. Um I I have to watch the there's a Hulu documentary also that apparently is a little bit more in depth than the Netflix. Um but one of the things I did want to say about her was um I understand why the judge didn't give her a longer sentence, um, and why I think maybe she shouldn't have been charged as an adult. Um because of the underdeveloped brain. Exactly. Like yes, she was a spoiled rotten brat. Yes, she was a horrible person, but she was 17. Yes, yes, and the thought process first of all, you don't have the ability to understand that your actions leading to someone's death is final, right? And I do think she meant to kill herself as well. Do you? I do. Although there was a lot more damage on that side of the car, but I think in her little brain, underdeveloped, wrecking that car was gonna take her out too.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

I don't even know if she meant to kill anybody, I don't even if she knows she realized in the age that she was in the consequences of her actions. But I think the only reason I'm good with her being in there as long as she is well, not the only reason, but she never admitted to anything. No, I mean, not even close. And then even the mom, when she got up there and was doing her final plea, the judge was like, I don't hear anything about the families who lost their loved ones here. Yeah, you're just talking about her, and then the poor mom. I I actually felt kind of bad for that because you can't really judge her on that. Your kids get ready to go to jail, like right, right, that would be crazy. But then she just kept saying the two boys' names, like she wasn't saying it, like they were just you could tell she was just not even thinking clearly. But the dad of the friend, not the boyfriend, um, right. I didn't care much for him in in some of the stuff, but he was definitely the more mature parent, the more responsible parent. Um, and I forgot what I was gonna say about him. I've been talking so long, my brain is like, what is happening here? We're supposed to be laying on the couch staring at the TV right now. Um man, he had said something at the end.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I I just think um she obviously did it intentionally, like whether she meant to kill them or not, it was intentional. And I think the I think I understand the thought behind doing the bench trial instead of a jury trial.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Um, because that jury trial could have gone either way, like there was like a uh she had a better chance with the jury trial just because she was pretty. I mean, and unfortunately that didn't girl and she would have been sitting there being pretty with those big doe eyes and crying, and somebody would have taken sympathy on her. Well, that's just it that does having it.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

The the reasonable doubt that she meant to do it would have been, I think, where the jury could have like I said, that jury could have gone either way. I think the bench trial was a bad idea because the reasonable doubt was removed when they said the car had been put into neutral and then back out. Yes, that was those boys trying to put that car in neutral and her putting it back into drive. Yep, right. That that was the intent right there.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Yep, exactly, yeah, and the fact that I mean, just you've it's done, like you can't be recharged. Tell the families what happened, like they want to know what the final seconds of their children's lives were, you know, and exactly what went down. But yeah, it was it was really, really sad. Just it was sad. Just oh, I remember that dad. He he really did not like her parents. Um, I don't think anybody did, no, but when he was yeah, but when he was like, I just he said they're not doing her any good, pumping her up for the next 15 years, telling her she did absolutely nothing wrong, she doesn't deserve to be there, the system was against her. He's like, When she gets out, she's gonna be worse, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

And I've I've seen a lot of people on TikTok that were in jail with her at the time, and apparently this jail is um not like a max security. The one girl Kai called it camp cupcake, and um you can you can buy like uh gift boxes to give them, like family can send in and it's like through a third party, and you can like makeup and like all kinds of but I think I think women's prisons are a little bit more lax than men's prisons to begin with. Um so the one girl said, you know, it's not hard time, she said it's uncomfortable time, but it's not hard time, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:28

So especially the lifestyle she came from, yeah. Where she had what she wanted when she wanted, yeah. At all terms.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

The whole situation it it's just a very unfortunate thing. And and like I said, it is the flip side of the coin, you know, men get abused too, and it is, and they get they get taken seriously less than women, and but we have to do better there too.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

We do. I thought it was very powerful in her trial when they showed the video of her screaming and trying to break down the door, and he was just staying calm, you know. Like, please stop, like, yeah, stop doing this. You know, he she was clearly the violent one, and he was clearly calm, and he wasn't recording that to prove anything. I think he was on the phone with his mom or something at the time, yeah. So, yeah, I the thing that struck me as funny though, when she talked at the end, she developed a thug voice real fast. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

So different. I was like, what? The one girl on TikTok was like, that's not who she was when I was in there with her. So apparently she's learned something somewhere. It's

What Do We Do Better Now

SPEAKER_01 43:50

just it's you know, with with with any and all domestic violence, the whole it's just so unfortunate. And you know, this is a person that you trust. You sleep next to this person, you know. And then to to have to come to terms with the fact that you know you're you're not in a safe environment or whatever whatever. It it's just yes, yeah. It's very unfortunate. Yes. And we need to we need to do better as a as a nation.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Yes, as a society, yes. We need to be more supportive. I don't know what the answer is. Like some people are just evil, they just are. They're awful, awful. Their brains are broken, you know, and like you said, it is hard when you're in it, you can't see out of it, you can't see a solution. Like this is just your life now, and it happens gradually, too. Yeah, by the time it is so bad, you you don't even realize what's happened.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Well, you're financially, you know, it's it's financial, it's emotional, it's physical, it's it's everything.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

So, you know, you you can't shame it's shame. You have to people that you have been in this relationship, that you've been being abused, that you're scared, and you like you said, people are why didn't you leave? It's not that easy.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Well, and then that's that's where we need to do better as a society. We need to say you don't be ashamed. That's not your fault. It's not it's not it's not your fault, it's something that someone else did to you. That's it, and we should be more supportive and empowering to women and men who have been abused to to say, you know, you are brave for leaving, you are brave for telling someone, you know, you are brave for staying, knowing that any minute could be the laugh. Now we're gonna hack shit up. The dog is now gonna hack things up. I can't hear it, so okay, maybe no one else can either. Um but yeah, that I think that's as a society what we need to do. We need to learn how to empower people and not and not add to their issues by well, why didn't you leave? Well, uh, you know, good for you for for talking about it and good for you for you know taking a step, any step at all.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I actually read something in the past few weeks, uh, a lot, so that's not what I read was what I want to say is people are feel weak or feel like they're gonna be seen as weak, or they are seen as weak, um, when they're in the these positions. But I read an article a few weeks ago that uh men, um well, probably women too, they actually pick stronger-willed people because you have to be strong to be able to put up with that, right? So a weak person is just gonna crumble, like they're not gonna handle it. But somebody strong who's either had previous trauma or you know, is able to take these little things and keep going right and stay strong, like so. You actually it's a sign of you being a strong person if you've been chosen, unfortunately, by an abuser. So yeah, it's it's very interesting when you get into the psychology of all of it.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah, it's just it's it's we just need to do better. As I'm just gonna keep saying that. I'm gonna name this episode do fucking better or something like that. Just I don't know. I I I have been lucky enough to never have to have dealt with that, you know. I've never um, but I know I've worked with people who have used our safe at the restaurant to hive money. Um, I walked her significant other right the fuck out the door with his little tiny punk ass, explaining to him how maybe he should try taking on someone his own size, and then I would be more than happy to pony up. Um and of course, like the little pathetic weakling piece of shit, he walked right out the door. I backed him right the fuck out the door. Oh, because you know, um, and of course, my opinion is if you abuse uh a woman, then you should have to go on TV and go rounds with a professional female boxer. But you know that should be your punishment. Let's let's humiliate these people on fucking TV. Like Yeah, yeah, I love it. I don't I don't know what the answer is because obviously um trying someone and putting them in jail, they they come back out and they just do it to somebody else. And yeah, I I don't know what the answer is it is like how you how you stop these people from from being like this, but but we really need to find yes find the answer there.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Yep, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

So that's our social commentary for do fucking do fucking better.

Wrap Up And Listener Email Prompt

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Do fucking better. All right, well, we're gonna let poor Nicole go back to bed. Yes, and yeah, so sorry about the sound, everybody. Um hopefully this episode airs. If not, yeah, it'll be our little secret. The greatest episode that never was. Yeah. So you can like, share, rate, review.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Uh you can find us on all the socials at uh like whatever pod. Um you can go to TikTok and listen to me talk about Holara Leggings. Um you can go to our website, uh like www.likewhateverpod.com. Um, you can go and read more about all the great domestic violence charities and um helplines. Yes. And you can send us an email about how you would punish someone who abuses a significant other. To like whatever pod at gmail.com or don't like whatever. Whatever.