Should You Need Us

Transcript

Welcome Back And Real Life Chaos

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Welcome to Like Whatever, a podcast for, by, and about Gen X. I'm Nicole, and this is my BFFF Hoter.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hello. Yeah, we we did this once already, and then I don't we had technical issues, so we're having to redo it.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

So this this is last minute.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Mm-hmm. I mean, it's still gonna be amazing because it's a green script. But yeah, and I'm exhausted. Man, life has been very fast lately. Yeah, she just got back from St. Louis. I did. I did. I had a great time. Lovely city. I would love to go back and see it. Um, and then yesterday my friend had surgery and I've been helping her with that, and I'm just ready for some normalcy and routine back in my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Yeah, I understand that.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yeah, I'm I'm not a go, go, go kind of girl. I uh yeah, I like sitting.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Need your rest, rest and relaxation.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

I haven't done much sitting lately.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I hate that kind of shit when you're not like, yeah, I hate I I need my rest. I need to I can't be going all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

I just finished therapy and I told her straight up I have not been doing self-care. I'm just gonna tell you that. I've been eating like shit, not getting right sleep. It's just stay focused on to the next one. That one's done. Let's do the next thing until we get it done. But there's light at the end of the tunnel. I think we'll all see over the horizon, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Well, you got the weekend, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

I do. But my house needs to be cleaned so bad. Because I haven't been here. So you know how much I love to clean, so I'm really excited about that. Yeah.

Big Bear Eagles Update Gets Wild

SPEAKER_01 2:25

So I I I was told that I have to Nicole when we recorded, I had the eagle from um Big Bear on my brain, and so I went on a rant about it. And I don't think it was a rant.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

No, but it was a good 15 minutes of of a really good update, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I don't think it's fair for us to keep it from her listeners.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

So there's more to add because it's been two days.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

And I even saw it on the news, it was on um CBS.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

It's on all the news everywhere, it's everywhere. Yes. So if you don't ever yes, yes. So in case you don't know, um, it's a a mated pair of bald eagles at the Big Bear Lake, and they have a Facebook page, Friends of Big Bear. Um and it's the point, so it's the it's a tight shot of the nest that they have been nesting in for a very long time, and then they have a couple of shots where it's like so you can see above the nest, and like so they're wide shots of the whole area, so you can see them pretty good. But but the the parents are Jackie and Shadow, the mated pair of Jackie and Shadow. This year they have they have gone through it. This year has been rough on us all. So two years ago, yeah, two years ago, they had their eggs did not hatch, so they did not have a um a set of chicks at all. Um, and it was devastating, just devastating because they grieve the law, and it took it took Shadow longer than Jackie to give it up, like because he was still fucking with the nest and stuff like that. So it was it was just sad to watch, but you know, the whole point of this camera is so you can observe their natural behavior, and it's all part of nature, right? So last year they had two successful chicks. Well, they she laid three eggs, okay. All three eggs hatched, but uh it's it snows well into May in um at Big Bear Lake, and so it got cold and it snowed, and when Shadow was taking his turn incubating the chicks, when he went to get up, one of the chicks was stuck to his leg. And when he went to leave the nest, it was still stuck to his leg, and then Eaglet ended up falling out of the nest. Yeah, so then they had just two, right? Um, that's so the but they successfully fledged and went away, and it was Gizmo and Sunny were the two last year. And it one of the other cool things is they give there's a kindergarten class or a first game or an elementary school. I don't know if it's a whole school or what they vote on the names, whatever school is there. So they name them. Um what the fuck that was. Uh so any anyway, so this year I have my bird with me, and she is not liking my headphones. Um so this year they had they had the first set that she laid ravens got to and ate her eggs. Right. So they did not hatch, obviously. And then the she laid a second set, and that has that hatched. 50, they're like 53, 53 or 54 days old now. Okay. So but the ravens, because ravens are opportunists, they still have issues with ravens, and it was pretty, it was pretty crazy because uh the ravens kept trying to get in the nest. Oh, there's also a squirrel that lives there, and her name lives her her name is um oh shit. I can't remember what the squirrel's name is. I don't remember what the squirrel's name is, but they've named the squirrel too. Um so the okay, stop. That's really distracting. Um it's right in my ear. So the um fucking bird. But I just got home from work, like uh right before we did this. So she's got hasn't been out of her cage all day. Oh, okay. Anyway, so the ravens were coming and bothering, trying to get to the chicks, and Jackie and Shadow were having to like chase them off all the time. So what you know, ravens are obviously pretty fucking smart. So they would try and lure them out of the nest and then try and come into the nest and grab the babies, but they didn't do that, and then one day, the wide shot, um, you can see the ravens like pestering them coming back and forth and stuff, and all of a sudden, Shadow comes like out of nowhere and snatches one of them out of the air. Wow. And then they and then they show the nest, they go back to the nest and he brings in a raven so that the chick's got to eat a raven. So that was pretty crazy. I mean, if you're gonna an eye for a night, if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

So I love your Taylor Swift.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

So they also Jackie, when she was incubating the eggs, got attacked by an eagle, which happens a lot in other nests that I've watched. The eagle or the owl takes advantage of it being knight and tries to knock the eagle off the nest so it can get the egg. But she didn't. Anyhow, moving on. Both hits both chicks hatched. Yay, they are named Sandy and Luna. And um, so a subadult is uh bald eagles do not get their white heads until they're like four or five.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Um, so a subadult does not have the white head. So recently, a lot of subadults have been in the area, which is which is completely natural process. They're trying to find that the the the lake is full of fish, and you know, everybody wants a piece of this area, blah blah blah. So Jackie and Shadow chase them away. Well, these particular two subadults that have been coming around have been pretty aggressive in getting to this nest. This nest, by the way, I just did find this out. This nest is the nest Jackie was was born in. Oh yeah, she took over the nest after her parents. I don't know if they died or moved on or what happened to them, but they retired, moved to Florida. They moved to Florida and they are now happy there.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Um so real quick, are these two younger eagles a male and female pair?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

No, they've at least they know at least well, they don't know. Um, it's it's really hard to tell um the difference between a male and a female, especially as a sub-adult. But females are typically larger than males, and one of them is definitely a female because it's pretty big, but I'm not sure about the other. They're also, I think, too young to be a mated pair yet. Oh, okay. Like I think they're not exist. Well, they are becoming they think they're about four years old, so this this nesting season would be their first clutch.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Um, so that's probably why they're being so aggressive.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

But they're like planning for next year.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yes. Okay. The mating process happens in the fall, and then the nesting process happens in like February-ish, there.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

And then why don't they build their own nest?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

I don't know that. I don't know why. I guess it's easier to buy a house that's already there than to build your own.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

I didn't know eagles were as lazy as me, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah. Well, uh also Shadow is Shadow was not Jackie's original mate. Um, Jackie's original mate was Mr. B, but Shadow pushed Mr. B out. So that's also yeah, that's also what can happen. Like a male or female can come in and usurp the other one. But um, and Shadow is just hilarious. Like he loves building that nest. Like he also really likes incubating the eggs, and he does pretty much everything he can to get her off the nest so that he can sit on it.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

She got herself a good one.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

She did. He there's a couple of times he came in with like a huge giant stick and would like hit her in the head with it until she moved, and then as soon as she moved, he'd drop the stick and get on the eggs, and it's you know, I mean, and of course, a lot of this is anthropomorphizing birds, you know. You just want well, he he's you whatever, but anyway, anyway, all this last Thursday, the two subadults and Jackie went at it. They all ended up on the ground. There's video that Jackie was fending them off, and she rolled over onto her back and went talons up with them and successfully defended herself, but then was unable to fly. Could not get herself, yeah, could not get herself back up. So um they spent some time trying to figure out what they wanted to do. Um, but she was on the ground and then she flew to a house and she was on the roof of the house. And honestly, I think if it if she hadn't gotten into like the camping area is what it looks like to me, like a cabin situation. I think if she hadn't gotten in there, I think they might have just let it go. Um because they try not to interfere.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

But in like after the chicks hatched, Jackie had swallowed uh um a fishing lure, fishing line, because you could see the fishing line coming out of her mouth. So, but it seemed to have passed just fine. But anyway, I forgot about that part, anyhow. Let's get back on the story, Heather. It's almost over. So Saturday, Friday into Saturday, Jackie was still not flying, and they had become increasingly concerned because she was in water and she was having trouble getting out of the water, and they then decided that they were gonna do something about it. They called in several different raptor um rescues. They finally got the one that's like in LA, I think it's like four hours away. And um, they did come and get her, but they weren't they nobody was exactly sure if it was her, but Jackie has a very distinct white patch of feather on her shoulder. So the pictures, yeah, it the pictures all looked very much like it was her, and then the raptor people came and they took pictures, and it was because they're not banded. Um, it was certain that she wasn't it was in fact Jackie. So now this poor Raptor Center is trying to fend off all these people who follow these eagles while trying to take care of the eagle and and all that. So she was taken in at 2 a.m. They did run all the tests today. They did um so far that she is anemic. She was very sick and underweight. Um, they do not know what is causing her anemia at this point. They have done all the the lead toxicity came back negative. Today, I found that out today. Yeah, um, she has no broken, no visible injuries, no broken anything. There's no there's no sinkers in her, the hook is not in her. They did x-rays and all that, so she's she they just don't know why um she is anemic, but they can't test for rodent side. So they said that that could still be a possibility that she could have eaten uh uh a poisoned rodent, so that is where we stand today. But today, also one of the subadults was seen sitting on one of the trees near Shadow. Shadow was vocalizing, but he did not chase it off. So there is now some concern that while Jackie's away, he'll be outnumbered. Yeah, she's gonna the only thing they do they know how old Jackie and They do know how old Jackie is, but I don't remember how old they said she is because they know they know when she was when she was born. Um, because she was born in that nest. Um, but Shadow they don't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Um yeah, so she has to now they have to wait until she comes back to see. They said the good thing about it is that it's the end of the nesting season. Um so there's not as big of an urge to mate. So Shadow might be able to wait for her to get back, like that won't um drive him to get a new mate um until the fall. So my goodness. That's a lot. It is, it is so that that's where we stand. Um she is eating, she is perching, um, but she is not flying, and that's kind of important. Yeah, she needs to be able to be able to be called. Yeah, she needs to be able to fly. So if you're following, it's Jackie and Shadow at Big Bear Lake. Uh I don't know. I imagine that this this rescue is gonna get a fuck ton of money because they've been you know yeah. Anyway, let's move on. Okay, you want to get up there? No, okay. Um,

Switching Gears To Labyrinth

SPEAKER_01 17:04

we're gonna today, because Nicole has somewhere to be, so we have to hurry this up. Also, I'm probably not gonna edit this, so you're getting it raw.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Oh, I know. Uh, let's fuck around and find out about the movie Labyrinth.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yay!

SPEAKER_01 17:24

And that's not kill my bird.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Good luck.

unknown 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Oh, did you you might not have seen because you probably don't follow birds, but there was a big uh rescue yesterday. 300 and almost 400 birds rescued yesterday from a um a shop in Baltimore. That's horrible. Yeah, they're they're trying to find places for them to go. They were in various conditions. Yeah. Um, okay, some films entertain you, some films comfort you, and then there are films that feel like they crawled out of your subconscious, set up a camp in your memory, and refused to leave. Labyrinth, released in 1986 and directed by Jim Henson, is one of those films for me. On the surface, it's a fantasy about a teenage girl trying to rescue her baby brother from a goblin king. But underneath the puppets, the music, and the strange creatures, labyrinth is a psychological journey, a map of what it feels like to move from childhood into adulthood, from self-absorption into responsibility, and from fantasy into integrated imagination.

SPEAKER_04 18:34

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

So Jim Henson is the visionary behind it. To understand Labyrinth, you have to understand Jim Henson's ambition at the time. By the mid-80s, Henson was already known worldwide for the Muppet Show and Sesame Street. He'd proven that puppets could be funny, charming, and beloved. But he wanted more. He wanted puppetry to be taken seriously as an art form capable of drama, darkness, and emotional complexity. Also, right before we started this, when I was going to get trying to find the program to record to get sending you the link, there was a thing on Google about the dark crystal that I didn't get to read yet.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

That's so funny. And today my friend who had the surgery yesterday was talking a lot about David Bowie.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

I was like, Oh, that's Are you Alexa? Can you hear my thoughts? Um, Henson directed film, but wasn't he wasn't just a director. He was the architect of the entire creature ecosystem. His workshop, the Jim Henson Creature Shop, designed and built the goblins, the talking door knockers, Ludo, Hoggle, Serdidymus, and countless background creatures. They weren't just props, they were performances. Each required teams of puppeteers, act voice actors, and choreograph choreographers. Henson's goal was simple and ambitious: create a fantasy world that felt tactile and lived in, where every creature had weight, texture, and presence. No digital shortcuts, just craftsmanship. So, like a for reels, like yeah, like legit made a movie. Yeah, program to a computer. No. Behind the scenes, another giant name appears, George Lucas. Lucas served as executive producer on Labyrinth. By this point, he had already reshaped cinema with Star Wars. His involvement brought narrative, discipline, and structural support to Henson's imaginative chaos. Lucas helped refine the script, tighten the story, and ensure that Sarah's journey had a clear, emotional arc. Where Henson brought creatures and heart, Lucas brought pacing and story logic. The result is a film that feels both dreamlike and surprisingly coherent. It wanders, but it doesn't lose itself. Brian Fould is the visual DNA of the project. If you've ever looked at a goblin in Labyrinth and thought that feels like it came out of strange fairy tale, you're feeling the influence of Brian Froud. Froud was the conceptual designer for the film. His illustrations, full of crooked noses, asymmetrical faces, and earthy mischievous creatures, became the blueprint for the goblin world. The film's aesthetic is not sleek or polished. It's organic, messy, and slightly grotesque. And that is why I like it.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah, yeah. And that is a very excellent description of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

The labyrinth isn't meant to look like a pristine fantasy kingdom. It's meant to look like the inside of a mind, cluttered, inconsistent, and full of odd, half formed beings. The screenplay for Labyrinth went through multiple drafts and contributors, but one name stands out Terry Jones of Monty Python theme. Jones brought a sense of absurdist humor. And playful logic to the dialogue. Many of the film's quirky exchanges, the talking door knockers, the riddles, the bizarre etiquette of Sir Dynymus carry his fingerprints. I mean, Sir Dynamis carries Monty Python, like that's got Monty Python fingerprints all over it.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

It really is such a great collaboration of three really great minds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Um the script balances three tones: whimsy, surrealism, and emotional sincerity. The balance is fragile. Um, too much whimsy and the film becomes fluff, too much surrealism and it becomes alienating, too much sincerity and it risks melodrama.

unknown 22:42

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Labyrinth walks, that tight wrote with surprising grace. So

Who Made Labyrinth And Why

SPEAKER_01 22:50

who was in it? Who was in it? Who was in it? Why Jennifer Connolly was in it.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

She was.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

She is Sarah, imperfect, and that's the point. Jennifer Connolly was around 14 years old when she played Sarah Williams. At that age, most actors are directed to be either precious or adorably naive. Connolly's Sarah is neither. Sarah is dramatic, self-absorbed, frustrated, theatrical in the way that only a teenager who lives in half in fantasy can be.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah, well, that kind of describes any fan any teenager. I know. That describes me most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

She's not wrong. Connolly's performance is crucial because the entire film rests on whether we believe Sarah's emotional journey. She starts the film reciting lines from a fantasy book in a park, dressed in a theatrical outfit, lost in her own world. She feels misunderstood by her parents, burdened by babysitting, and resentful of her baby brother Toby. And she's not wrong that her life feels unfair, but also not right in how she handled it. Connolly plays the tension beautifully. She doesn't try to make Sarah cool or relatable in a modern sense. She lets Sarah be messy, immature, and reactive. That makes her growth later in the film feel earned. Now, who was Jareth? David Bowie's casting as Jareth the Goblin King is one of the most defining choices in the film. Bowie was already a global music icon, known for his shape-shifting personas and androgynous otherworldly presence. Bringing him into Labyrinth wasn't just about star power, it was about embodying temptation. Jared is not a monster, he's not a cackling villain. He's a seductive, calm, and strangely vulnerable. He offers Sarah a world where she doesn't have to grow up, doesn't have to be responsible, and doesn't have to face the consequences of her actions. Bowie's performance is layered, his physical presence is demanding, indeed, but graceful. His voice, both speaking and singing, wraps the film in a hypnotic tone. His eyes and posture, half-smile all suggest someone who is both in control and deeply invested in Sarah's choices. He's not just trying to win, he's trying to be chosen. And I also, before we were when we recorded this the first time, just said, just remember, I get it, it's problematic that David Bowie was probably in his 30s and she was 14, and blah blah blah. But it was the 80s and a different time.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

And as you'll get to, there was not any um over physical, physical touch, nothing sexualized, just just a dirty old man chasing a 14-year-old.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yep. Okay. Who happened who's David Bowie? Who happens to be the very baby at the center of the story, Toby, is played by Toby Froud, Brian Froud's son. Toby doesn't have lines, but he has a function. He is the living embodiment of responsibility. He's the thing Sarah doesn't want to deal with at the beginning of the film. Oh no, no, no, no, no. Uh he he she just made my fucking thing go crazy. She doesn't want to deal with at the beginning of the film. He's the innocent consequence of her careless wish. The fact that Toby is so small, so vulnerable, and so unaware of what's happening amplifies the stakes. It isn't a quest for a magic artifact, it's a rescue mission for human life. And I also think that that's very true, the fact that the baby is actually real, like a real baby, which didn't happen a lot back then.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

And it was very movies back then that it was a doll.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah. And they could have easily, you know, not had him in it as much, or not, okay, Rocky. I don't know why my animals are insane today, but they are. I I think they could they could have used a puppet for it. I mean, they could have. I think it makes it more more real that it is an actual baby.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Or they could have just not shown the baby at all, you know, it just had it alluded to.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

And how great is it that he's that guy's son?

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Yeah. That is pretty cool.

unknown 27:44

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Behind every creature in Leaventh is a team of performers whose names are less known, but whose work is essential. Hoggle is a combination of a full body costume, animatronic, facial controls, and voice performance. Multiple puppeteers coordinate to bring his expression to life. Ludo, Ludo's sad. Ludo's really sad right now. Rocky, you're making Ludo sad. Ludo required a massive costume and physical endurance, plus vocal work to convey his gentle nature. Sir Didymus involved broad puppetry and voice acting to create his exaggerated bravado. The performers had to act through layers of foam, latex, and mechanical rigs. They had to hit marks, respond to cues, and convey emotion without the benefit of their own face. In many ways, Labyrinth is an ensemble film where half the cast is hidden inside creatures.

Sarah’s Journey From Escape To Choice

SPEAKER_01 28:53

So the film opens with Sarah in a park reciting lines from a fantasy book titled Labyrinth. She's dressed in a theatrical outfit, lost in her own imagination. When she realizes she's late to babysit Toby, she rushes home already annoyed. Her stepmother criticizes her for being childish. Her father is distant, trying to keep peace. Toby's crying, demanding attention. Sarah's refrain, it's not fair, is the emotional thesis of her starting point. She sees herself as the victim of everyone else's expectations.

unknown 29:27

I mean, I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

This is important. The film doesn't invalidate her feelings. It doesn't say she's wrong to feel overwhelmed. It says she's wrong to believe that she has no agency. Which I, you know, as a teenager, you don't feel like you have any control over anything.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Absolutely not. Your parents say no, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Like that's that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

You don't have could you don't have control over your body, your hormones are out of control. Like you just don't have any control at all. Nothing. Yep. Except your imagination. To quote SpongeBob. Yes. Imagination. Um in a moment of frustration, Sarah stands in Toby's room and recites a monologue from her book, wishing the goblins would take him away. And then they do. Which I told you before that, you know, my sister who was here last week, I too would stand in her room and recite the Goblin King thing. But they never came for her.

unknown 30:39

I know.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Life isn't fair.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

It's not fair. Uh this so the goblins who had been lurking unseen respond to her words. Toby disappears, the room goes silent, the wind picks up, and Jareth appears. This is the turning point where fantasy stops being harmless. Sarah's imagination has consequences. Her words have power. The film is telling us you can't live in a story without eventually becoming responsible for what you say and do. Jared offers Sarah a deal. He'll keep Toby and she can go back to her life, or she can enter the labyrinth and try to rescue him. He gives her 13 hours to solve the maze. This is more than a plot device. It's a metaphor for adolescence. There is a limited window where you can choose who you're going to be. The clock is ticking. Childhood is ending. The labyrinth is the journey between who you were and who you're becoming.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

That's so deep.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

I know. I know. When I was going through this, I was like, you know, I didn't really think this movie was that deep. But I get it now.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I need to watch it from this new perspective.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I know, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, when Sarah first arrives, it's a la oh, she Sarah chooses to end the Labyrinth. Um obviously, otherwise, this would be a very short movie. And it wouldn't be called Labyrinth. Where the fuck did Toby go? Why did no one call CPS when the baby went missing?

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yeah, for real.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

When Sarah first arrives at the labyrinth, she encounters a long straight wall with no visible entrance. She walks along it frustrated until a small worm reveals that there was a door right in front of her the whole time. And I love that motherfucking worm. He's so cute. I want to get a labyrinth tattoo, and I cannot, I I can't figure out what I want. I can't make up my no, no, we're not gonna bite the dog. We're not we're not biting the dog. Um okay. Maybe the little worm.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

This moment sets the tone. The labyrinth doesn't obey normal logic, it oblays it obeys emotional logic. Things are hidden until you change perspective. Paraths only appear only when you stop assuming you know how they work. Help comes from unexpected places. I don't like that's not the truth and a half. I mean you don't really get that until you're older, when you figure out when you realize like, oh, maybe that way is not working. Maybe I should instead of just banging your head on against the wall.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Yeah, yeah. Wisdom is a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah, and past only appear when you stop assuming you know how they work. I mean, if that doesn't say something.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Yeah. Hard, hard, hard-learned lesson on this end here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

The labyrinth is less a physical space and more a representation of Sarah's inner confusion. She's trying to navigate a world where the rules she thought she knew were no longer apply. Sarah meets Hoggle, a grumpy, self-interested creature who is more concerned with his own comfort than with helping her. Same, Hoggle. Same. Hoggle is bribed by Jareth, intimidated by danger, and constantly torn between self-preservation and loyalty. He's the part of Sarah that wants to avoid discomfort, that wants shortcuts, that wants to escape responsibility. Throughout the film, Hoggle evolves. He betrays Sarah at one point, giving her a poisoned peach, but he also saves her, apologizes, and chooses loyalty over fear. Hoggle's arc mirrors Sarah's both must learn that doing the right thing often means fading, facing what scares you. The Fieries One of the film's most surreal sequences, Sarah encounters the fieries, creatures who can detach their own heads and limbs, treating their bodies like toys. They represent a kind of chaotic freedom, the idea of living without consequences, where you can pull yourself apart and put yourself back together without pain. And again, I'll say that was me and Yeah, because here come here comes the part. And here's the part where you understand and how but their playfulness turns threatening when they try to remove Sarah's head. The scene shifts from silly to sinister, showing that a world without boundaries quickly becomes dangerous. Yes, because Nicole did, in fact, try to remove my head numerous times.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

I did. I did. And there would have been a lot more consequences for me if I hadn't had really good friends. Watched out for me. Yes. Yes. Toss me in the backseat of the car when the time was ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Otherwise, this podcast be where the fuck did Nicole go?

SPEAKER_03 36:03

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Sarah, Hoggle, and Ludo eventually reach the back Ludo's sad. Ludo represents like her her sadness. The bog is a metaphor for permanent consequences. Some choices don't wash off, some actions leave marks that don't fade. To cross the bog, they need Sir Didymus, a fox-like knight who guards a bridge and insists on rules that don't make any sense. I love Sir Didymus. You are just terrible.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Maybe that can be your tattoo. Oh, the fox and the worm.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

The fox and the worm. Serdidymus is all bravado and honor. He represents the part of Sarah that wants to be noble, that wants to follow the rules, that wants to be the hero, but his rules are arbitrary and his courage is performative. Sarah learns to navigate both, respecting his courage while also bending the rules when necessary. One of the most psychologically rich scenes in Labyrinth takes place in the junkyard. Sarah is led to a replica of her building, filled with her possessions, toys, books, costumes. A junk lady piles objects onto her, insisting that these things are what matter. This is the temptation of nostalgia. It's the idea that you can stay safe by clinging to the past, surrounding yourself with familiar things, and refusing to move forward.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

And I know people like that. Yes. Hard to love.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

But as the junk piles up, Sarah begins to realize that this comfort is a trap. She's being buried under her own history. She has to choose, stay in the illusion of safety or break free and continue her journey. And she chooses to break free. The Escher room.

Temptation Scenes And The Line That Breaks It

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Stairs going in impossible directions, gravity-defying logic, Toby crawling in places that seem unreachable. Do you remember like MC Escher had like this big huge moment in like the 90s or the early 20s?

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Yeah, it was everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

And then it and then it all just went away.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

It did. He has a house somewhere here in the United States. Because my brother-in-law was super into him.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Oh. It's crazy, right? Like you think about how it was everywhere, and then it just stopped. And then I sometimes think about when Gregorian chants were a thing and they were everywhere. Oh my god. Gregorian chant. And then that just stopped. Yeah. It's pretty crazy how that works. Like just one day. And it's like, ugh.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Yeah, we get bored with it. On to the next thing.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Oh yeah, it's crazy. So the climax of the film takes place in a room inspired by the art of MC Escher. Stairs. I said that already. The room is the ultimate metaphor for perspective. Nothing is stable. Up is down, down is sideways. Sarah has to navigate not just space but perception. Jared appears here trying one last time to convince her to stay with him. He offers her her love, adoration, and a world built around her. But like I said, just disregard the fact that he's too old. Yeah. Pretend like she's 18 and he's 23. Sarah has changed. She sees that his world, while beautiful, is not real. It's a fantasy that requires her to surrender her autonomy. I think that's true, too. And then she speaks the line that breaks everything. And like I said before, and I said it this morning and yesterday morning, especially yesterday morning, because yesterday at work sucked monkey ass. So when I went in, I turned and looked at all my stuff, and I said, You have no power over me. And it did because I did not get home until this week has been cra I don't know what's happening.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

But yeah, I I know it must be I think I read something's in retrograde, and it might be the worst one yet. Oh, great. Mercury.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Mercury. I I hope that ends soon. Yeah. Because this this week has been ugh. Yeah. I'm not built for that. No, I'm not either. And I had so much yesterday, it just sucked so bad. And it's been hot.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

It was lovely today, though.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yes, today was absolutely gorgeous. This bird is gonna kill me. So she claims she says, You have no power over me. This is the emotional core of the film. Sarah is not just rejecting Jareth, she's rejecting the idea that her life is controlled by external forces, whether fantasy, resentment, or other people's expectations. She claims her own power.

unknown 41:36

I'm gonna punch this bird in the face.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

At the heart, at its heart, labyrinth is about the tension between responsibility and escape. Sarah starts the film wanting to escape.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

Ow, ow, ow.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Escaping babysitting, escape family conflict, escape the discomfort of growing up. The labyrinth forces her to confront the consequences of escape. Every shortcut has a cost. Every refusal to act leads to danger. Every fantasy that removes responsibility becomes Did I say that? By the end, she doesn't reject fantasy, she rejects escapism. Um one of the most powerful messages in Labyrinth is that imagination is not something you outgrow, it's something you learn to use differently.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

At the beginning, Sarah uses imagination to avoid reality. She hides in stories, costumes, and dramatic monologues. By the end, she uses imagination to negat navigate reality. She solves riddles, she sees through illusions, she recognizes manipulation. Her imagination becomes a tool for discernment and not avoidance. Which, you know, you you have to learn how to I don't want to say disassociate and use your imagination to get her life.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

I don't know, disassociation isn't something.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Well, that's that. Um it's just funny how imagination does change in you as you get older.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

It does. I think I think a lot more of your imagination is um fearful than it is when you're a kid. It's more whimsical as a child. Um yeah, and my imagination jumps off a cliff every day. Every day. Every day. Multiple times a day. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

It's called anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

You have no power over me is more than a line. It's a declaration of identity. Throughout the film, Sarah is pulled between different forces Jared's seduction, her parents' expectations, her own fantasies, her fear, and guilt. In the Escher room, she realizes that none of these forces can define her unless she lets them. She chooses. This is a critical. Oh no. Speaking of critical, my battery. Everyone hold please. This is the fun of you getting to hear. Oh shit. Getting to hear. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

It's a sin you guys only get to hear this and not see it.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Pretty energy. I'm fighting with literally everything right now. I'm gonna have to try to figure out how to cut this out because that can't stay. Good luck. I hit the I hit I hit the mic like 19 times. Okay, we're charging. Okay.

unknown 44:43

Oh my god. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

This in the Escher room, she realizes that none of these forces can define her unless she lets them. She chooses self-authority. This is a critical coming of age moment. The realization that you can't control everything that happens to you, but you can control what you give power to. That is what my therapist used to say. You can only control what you can control.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

My therapist and I just talked about that about an hour ago.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

See? Good thing you had therapy.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Oh, thank God.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Because you didn't have it last week, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:24

No. And I told her that this morning when I was thinking of the stress of the day, I was like, man, I might have to cancel therapy, which I've never ever done. And then I was like, wait, you're thinking about canceling therapy because you're too anxious and stressed and like freaking out. And she's like, you would be surprised at how many people cancel with me because they say they're too stressed or they have too much going on. And she's like, uh that's kind of why we're here.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Yeah. Um Hoggle, Ludo, and Serditymus are not just side characters, they can be read as aspects of Sarah's psyche. Hoggle is fear and self-protection. Ludo is vulnerability and empathy. Where'd my paper go? Um Serditymus is courage and performative heroism. As Sarah learns to trust them, she's learning to trust those parts of herself. As they grow, she grows. The film suggests that becoming whole is not about eliminating your falls, but about integrating them.

Bowie Songs And Practical Effects Magic

SPEAKER_01 46:32

The soundtrack of Labyrinth is not just background music, it's emotional commentary. I mean, I don't know how you think you could get David Bowie and not have like a kick-ass soundtrack.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Exactly. And imagine how much like pressure there was for that. Because you're like, well, David Bowie is gonna sing my shit.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

He's gonna be judging us.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah. Magic Dance plays during a scene where Jareth entertains the goblins with baby Toby. It's playful, catchy, and slightly unsettling. Underneath the fun, there's a darker truth. Toby is being used as a prop in Jared's world. You remind me of the babe. What babe? The babe with the power. What power? The power of voodoo. Whoodoo you do? Do what? Remind me of the babe. It's my fate. I love that part. As the world falls down, accompanies the ballroom scene where Sarah is swept into a dreamlike masquerade. The song is tender and romantic, but the visuals are disorienting. It's the seduction of fantasy, beautiful but disorienting. Within you plays during the Escher Room sequence. It's introspective, almost mournful. Jaris sings about being trapped within his own world, hinting that he too is bound by the rules of the labyrinth. The music gives voice to the emotional undercurrents of each scene. Bowie's presence as both actor and musician ties the film's psychological themes together. In an era before digital effects dominated fantasy, Labyrinth relied almost entirely on practical effects. Puppets were built with intricate mechanical systems to control eyes, mouths, and facial expressions. Sets were constructed to create forced perspective and visual illusions. Costumes were heavily layered and physically demanding. The physicality matters. The world of Labyrinth feels real because it is real. The creatures occupy space, the goblins cast shadow, the labyrinth walls are solid. That tangibil tangibility reinforces the film's message. Even fantasy has weight, even imagination has structure. To create the illusion of the impossible stairs in the Escher room, the production used carefully designed sets and camera angles. Toby's movement across the space is choreographed to feel both plausible and impossible. Symbolically, the room represents the instability of perception. Sarah's journey has taken her, taught her that in reality, not always what it seems. In the final test, she must navigate a world where nothing is stable and still find a way the way to Toby. She succeeds not by mastering the space, but by mastering herself. After defeating Jareth, not with violence, but with the declaration of self-authority, Sarah returns home. Toby is safe and the crisis is over. But something has changed. She looks at her room differently. The toys, the costumes, the fantasy objects are still there, but they no longer function as escape routes. They are part of her, not all of her. She checks on Toby with genuine care. She accepts her role in his life. Responsibility is no longer an unfair burden. It's a choice she's willing to make. In the final moments, Sarah sees her labyrinth companions, Hoggle, Ludo, Serditimus, appear in her room and they celebrate together. It can be read as a literal visualization from another world, as symbolic representation of her integrated imagination, as a visual metaphor for the idea that growing up doesn't mean abandoning what made you feel alive. The key point is Sarah does not reject fantasy. She relocates it. It's no longer a place to hide. It's a place where she can visit while still living in reality. Why does Labyrinth still resonate with us? It's not because of nostalgia, it's not because of retro aesthetics or remember when energy. It's because the film captures something timeless. The emotional chaos of becoming a person who can hold both responsibility and imagination at the same time. It speaks to anyone who has felt overwhelmed by expectations, um, anyone who has wanted to escape their life, anyone who's realized painfully that their words and choices have consequences, anyone who has had to say, you have no power over me. Something that once felt irresistible. And that's what I'm trying to say. Like this is for me. Oh no! Okay, I swear to God. She just made everything go away.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

It still says we're recording, so okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Thank God. Because like she shut everything down. Oh my god. Alright. Um it speaks uh Labyrinth is not just a fantasy movie, it's a psychological journey disguised as a fairy tale. Story about learning to walk throughout your own mind, confronted, confront your own illusions, and come out on the other side with a clearer sense of who you are. And that's why decades later it still feels like a maze worth walking.

Why Labyrinth Still Resonates

SPEAKER_01 51:57

So I got some fun facts. Fun facts. The original hoggle puppet, puppet, not puppet, puppet, the full animatronic suit was accidentally lost in transit and ended up in an unclaimed luggage center in Alabama. It sat there for years until someone recognized it. Today it's restored and displayed at the unclaimed baggage museum.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

That's so crazy. Like, how did they not find it?

SPEAKER_01 52:26

How do you not know it's Jim Henson's and like call and be like, hey, uh yeah, I mean, I guess it wasn't a digital world back then, but and what did they do?

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Did they have to build a new one?

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Oh no, it was after the movie was over. So oh I guess they were bringing it back because it was all filmed in in the UK. So I guess when they were bringing it back, it got lost. Was it in like a bag? Or was it just like sitting up in the corner? Like, how do you not be like that's a weird thing to think on a plane? That's for all you listening. Next time, do not check your hoggle pop puppet. Just take him on the plane with you. Buy the extra seat.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Take some of your cess, take some of your um Muppet movie money and buy him an extra seat. All the mesmerizing crystal ball contact that uh David Bowie had, contact juggling, was performed by Michael Motion, a world-renowned juggler. He stood behind Joey Bowie, blind with his arms reaching around Bowie's body, performing the tricks without even seeing what he was doing. That's impressive.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

That's so crazy. That's so crazy. And you only have like half your arm to use because it's around David Bowie.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

And but you have and you have to hug David Bowie the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

I was gonna say, and you are wrapped around David Bowie and you have to focus on juggling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

That's a lot of fucking pressure.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

It's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Um, every goblin creature and odd little face in the film comes from Briald's personal sketchbook. Um, Henson didn't ask him to redesign anything. He told the creature shop to build the creatures exactly as Froud drew them. The masquerade ball sequence was filmed with dozens of professional dancers wearing heavy, elaborate masks. The scene took weeks to choreograph and was shot on a massive set built specifically for that moment. The iconic red and white stripe onesie Toby wears in the film becomes a running joke in the Froud household. Brian Froud later used similar stripes and other designs as a subtle nod to Labyrinth. Sir Dinamis was inspired by medieval illustrations. His design, fox-like, nightly, and absurdly confident comes from old Europe. P in manuscripts where animals were drawn performing heroic acts. And I could just see him like in the the corner of like an old, you know, like one of those old history books that did that kind of stuff that when you were a kid to make you more interested in it.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

They were like, Oh, look at this. The bog of eternal stench was built using real mud from latex rocks, bubbling chemical pools, hidden air hoses to create movement. Uh the smell wasn't real, but the heat from the setlights made the mud steam, which made filming miserable. Yeah. Bowie's pants became a cultural phenomenon. The tight, glittery pants Bowie wears as Jareth sparked decades of controversy. Costume designer Ellis Flight said the look was intentional, intentional. Jareth needed to be dangerous, alluring, and slightly unsettling. That's how I like my men. I said, and the last time we recorded this, I said that I feel like David Bowie's Jareth is why I was into uh all the bad boys. Oh, yeah. I feel like that was the first my first foray into the uh the love of the love of the bad boy. Definitely the villain. Because I love a villain. I love the villain in every story. My favorite character in um The Little Mermaid is Ursula.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Ursula, yep. I'm pretty sure your favorite character in most Disney movies is the villain. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Yeah, probably. Well, they're always dark, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

So you like it dark. I do.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

Um Ludo's costume weighed over 70 pounds. The performer inside Ludo, Ron Much, had to take frequent breaks because the suit was so heavy and hot, it required multiple puppeteers to operate the facial expressions remotely. Ludo's sad.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Well, that's why Ludo was sad.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Yeah, I was bad. His costume was heavy. Yeah, I'm pretty sad when I'm hot, too. The door knockers, each door knocker had internal mechanisms that allowed the mouth and ring to move independently. They were operated by multiple puppeteers coordinated in real time. Labyrinth was not a box office

Fun Facts And Cult Classic Legacy

SPEAKER_01 57:30

success. Critics were confused by its tone. Henson took the disappointment personally, feeling he had failed to push puppetry forward. It wasn't until years later that the film became a cult classic, which I didn't realize.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

That it was a cult classic.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Yeah, I mean I knew it was cult classic, but I didn't realize it wasn't popular.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

Yeah, well, you would have been like eight when it came out, or ten.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

I was ten. I was eighty-six. I was twelve, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Yeah, but you still wouldn't have known that. But it's crazy that those three great minds came together and it wasn't like a smash hit.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

I know. You would think if you you get David Bowie in there.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Right, and that too.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Like David Bowie alone should have made it um popular. Right. I don't know. Um several demos exist of Bowie experimenting with different musical directions for Jared. Some were more rock-oriented, others more theatrical. Only a handful made it to the final film. Can you imagine those? How much that shit would go for right now? Oh my god. I mean crazy. Insane. Yeah. The helping hands that form faces and talk to Sarah required dozens of performers. Each hand had to be choreographed to create expressions, eyes, mouth, cheeks, all in real time. That was all done like in real time. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

Oh, cheer. My work bestie just texted me. He he wanted to know what game we both want on. Oh. That was him texting me. He only won 12 cents. David Bowie's makeup took hours every day. The Labyrinth was built on the largest soundstage in Britain. The film used the massive H stage H stage at Ells Tree Studio, the same studio used for Star Wars and Indiana Jones. Many sets were built full scale and not miniature. That's crazy, also, that it was not all miniature. Yeah. Sarah's bedroom is a symbolic inventory of the entire film. Not every creature or challenge she faces appears in her room. Nearly every creature or challenge appears in her room. Ludo is a stuffed animal. Serdidymus is a figurine. The fieries are drawings. Jared resembles a music box figurine. The labyrinth is a poster. The Escher print hangs on her wall. The film tells you from the beginning that the labyrinth is her mind. Okay, stop doing that. So ow. That's it for my fun facts. The bird is biting the shit out of me because I won't let her bite my phone. If you've watched the film before, maybe this gives you a new lynch. If you haven't, maybe now you'll see it just not as a fantasy, but as a mirror. Because somewhere inside of all of us, there's a labyrinth, and somewhere inside that labyrinth there's a voice waiting to say, You have no power over me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

Except this bird currently has power over me. She does.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

She bites control.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

She's been biting the shit out of me. She has. I've watched. I need. I'm about to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

But thank you so much for that uh fun script.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

Yeah. It was uh it was fun to do, and I cooked her little wagon. Look. Um, it was fun to do, and I just fucking love that movie. Uh I've watched it a million times. It was Chris Christine and I's movie. We would quote it all the time, and it just it's it's makes me very happy and sad all at the same time. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

And that's what makes a great movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

Yeah. Uh and you know, it's it I haven't watched it in uh last time I saw it was about a year ago. Um I'm gonna have to watch it again. I feel like it holds up, but yeah, that's just except for the whole David Bowie's too old for Jennifer Connolly.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

But it was 1986, and that was a thing. And then and then he goes on to do the Dark Crystal, which is also one of my fucking favorite movies.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

I mean, you can't uh yeah, that's a great movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Okay, well, I better wrap this up before I have to murder the bird.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

Yeah, don't don't record that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

Yeah, I

Wrap Up And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

won't. Um well, thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Um, welcome back, Nicole.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:41

Thank you, and thank you to Jess for filling in last week.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Yes, I'm trying to get her to do, she'll she'll do another one, I feel like. Okay, she was nervous, she was nervous, but she got she she warmed up after a while. I think the three of us. I like I enjoyed that she called you out on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

That was my favorite part. Anyway, uh, you can find us where you find all podcasts. Uh you can like, share, rate, reveal. Please can find us on all the socials at Like Whatever Pod. We have a website, www.likewhateverpod.com. We have merch on there.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:20

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Um, you can send us an email about what your favorite quote from the labyrinth is to likewhatever pod at gmail.com or don't like whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

Bye.